The minimum wage

[medusala]

Mentioned by Chief on another thread. Saw this today and thought would post it re Australia being out of step with the rest of the world re min wage. Will be interesting to see if this can be maintained when reversion to mean happens and we have a very nasty recession and both the debt and deficit dramatically increase.

It would be a brave (but sensible) government to reduce the minimum wage. I doubt the Libs would ever have the backbone to do it.

 

[Fire]

The problem with Australia's productivity lies with bubble real estate prices and those being overpaid, such as the construction and mining industry. Not those who are underpaid working minimum wage.

Having a reasonable minimum wage is good for the economy overall. Having throngs of working poor like in the US has proven to be a disaster for money velocity.

 

[medusala]

Having throngs of working poor like in the US has proven to be a disaster for money velocity.

That is largely an issue of mass immigration. The minimum wage doesn't mean much when you have a vast number of illegal immigrants willing to work for two thirds of stuff all.

 

[Fire]

That is largely an issue of mass immigration. The minimum wage doesn't mean much when you have a vast number of illegal immigrants willing to work for two thirds of stuff all.

I don't see how that is connected.

The US unemployment rate is low, so its not like the immigrants are stealing all their lucrative minimum wage jobs. They are working poor; the first word in that description describes their employment status. Immigrants have nothing to do with why there is a vast underclass of employed, legal Americans who have little to no disposable income.

 

[medusala]

Immigrants have nothing to do with why there is a vast underclass of employed, legal Americans who have little to no disposable income.

They have everything to do with it. Wages get suppressed. You can have a higher min wage and there will simply be more unemployment.

Basic economics, supply and demand.

 

[Fire]

They have everything to do with it. Wages get suppressed. You can have a higher min wage and there will simply be more unemployment.

Basic economics, supply and demand.

No. Supply and demand would be no minimum wage.

Which would mean greater poverty with even less money velocity.

Sure, jobs dissapear when you raise the wage. No one in Australia pumps petrol for you anymore, and there arent too many supermarket clerks.

But so what? We've all seen what happens. When you take these jobs away, the productivity of the supermarket and petrol station skyrockets. Savings are passed on to customers and shareholders, and circulates through the economy, lifting the other service industries who then hire these same workers in more lucrative positions. The velocity of money accelerates.

The US still has someone filling your car up in every petrol station, and someone in every line ready to scan your groceries for you. Bottom feeder jobs which suck from productivity rather than add to it.

Its why unemployment in Australia has been close to the US in the modern era, despite us not having a throng of working poor.

To argue otherwise is to adhere to idealism rather than reality.

And to throw immigrants in there arguing they put downward pressure on wages, while at the same time trying to argue against having a wage floor, is just logically disconnected.

 

[medusala]

Its why unemployment in Australia has been close to the US in the modern era, despite us not having a throng of working poor..

Mining boom didn't help at all?

.

And to throw immigrants in there arguing they put downward pressure on wages, while at the same time trying to argue against having a wage floor, is just logically disconnected.

You aren't making a coherent argument. You appear to be making the claim that mass unskilled migration doesn't suppress wages. Of course it does. Even with a minimum wage. The UK is a prime example of that. Wages for builders, plumbers etc were decimated by the Poles.

 

[pazza]

Lowering the minimum wage would actually be more detrimental to our economy than raising it.

Why is that the case?

Prices.

Prices continually go up on everything. almost to the point of being out of control. The current minimum weekly wage (hourly doesn't cut it Meds...weekly measure is the way to go), already struggles to cover for the cost of everything else.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Mentioned by Chief on another thread. Saw this today and thought would post it re Australia being out of step with the rest of the world re min wage...

• Given you started a thread about it, perhaps you would like to explain why you think that graphic suggests Australia's minimum wage is too high?
• Given you refer to Chief mentioning it in a different thread, maybe you should link to that thread so we can see what discussion there was there?
• If you have any evidence for your whacky theory that Australia will have a "very nasty recession" and have a "reversion to the mean" (other than you just need this to happen in order to justify your constant, inaccurate, ideologically-inspired scare-mongering) then you could include that too. But you've probably guessed from my tone that it's other people's analysis on the minimum wage that I'm more interested in.

 

[medusala]

• Given you started a thread about it, perhaps you would like to explain why you think that graphic suggests Australia's minimum wage is too high?

% of median wage

• If you have any evidence for your whacky theory that Australia will have a "very nasty recession" and have a "reversion to the mean" (other than you just need this to happen in order to justify your constant, inaccurate, ideologically-inspired scare-mongering) then you could include that too. But you've probably guessed from my tone that it's other people's analysis on the minimum wage that I'm more interested in.

Do you actually understand reversion to mean? Google it. Then China hard landing. You cant regulate/ manage away the business cycle (only magic pudding sorts believe that). Bigger the boom, typically bigger the bust. That isn't ideology, that is historical reality.

See evidence given to UK low pay commission when Tony Blair introduced a minimum wage.

"your constant, inaccurate, ideologically-inspired scare-mongering"

Inaccurate. Lol, you have zero clue on economics and finance. Shown to be wrong time and time again. Yet still you clog threads with your cheerleading. Pavlovian. Pathetic.

You remind me of all the Goldilocks economy twits pre GFC.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

% of median wage

Where does the graphic refer to that?

The rest of your post doesn't warrant response. Just your usual useless posting, due to it being "ideologically-inspired scare-mongering". No links, no info, generalist references, over-the-top rhetoric, straw men, ad hominem attacks, odd slippery-slope tangents, etc. And, yes, all overwhelmingly "inaccurate".

 

[medusala]

Where does the graphic refer to that?

min wage ppp basis. It says so on the graphic. Ditto growth in nom vs real wages.

And, yes, all overwhelmingly "inaccurate".

Another non attempt to rebut an argument. No mention of Ceteris Paribus in your Arts "degree"?

 

[Ruck Machine]

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

The person you're describing doesn't have a job. Obviously.

Spend some time in the real world before you try and lecture people on their pay grade.

min wage ppp basis. It says so on the graphic. Ditto growth in nom vs real wages.

How does the small number of countries' "min wage ppp basis" shown on the graphic explain to anyone about "% of median wage"?
Where in the graphic is there a convincing case that minimum wage or "growth in nom vs real wages" has been a negative for Australia?

Another non attempt to rebut an argument. No mention of Ceteris Paribus in your Arts "degree"?

I don't have an Arts degree. As for putting quote marks around "degree", that actually mocks the entire tertiary system. Belittling everyone's degrees, including your own if you got one. And that's not a dig. I know people without degrees smarter than you, and people with degrees who aren't good at analysis either. Given you think quoting latin or dead authors makes you seem smart, you sure you don't have an Arts degree? I don't even think "Ceteris Paribus" is relevant to anything I said.

I think this thread is a fail.

 

[Ruck Machine]

The person you're describing doesn't have a job. Obviously.

Spend some time in the real world before you try and lecture people on their pay grade.

I've spent plenty of time in the real world and have worked for the minimum wage.

Conclusion - If you're on the minimum wage (and you're not a student) you're either too lazy or too stupid to increase your pay grade.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

I've spent plenty of time in the real world and have worked for the minimum wage.

Conclusion - If you're on the minimum wage (and you're not a student) you're either too lazy or too stupid to increase your pay grade.

Why are you giving students and yourself a free pass in this world view of your's?

 

[Ruck Machine]

Why are you giving students and yourself a free pass in this world view of your's?

I think the reasons are obvious to anyone with a semblence of intellegence.

FYI - I worked for the minimum wage as a student, so that would lump me in the student bucket.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

I think the reasons are obvious to anyone with a semblence of intellegence.

FYI - I worked for the minimum wage as a student, so that would lump me in the student bucket.

So you don't have a semblence of intelligence? Good thing you got minimum wage.

 

[Ruck Machine]

So you don't have a semblence of intelligence? Good thing you got minimum wage.

Are the reason not obvious to you? It's ok to admit you don't know. If you truly don't know just make a genuine request for more information.

 

[Maggie5]

I am really interested in this topic but looking at the graph means very little to me and find it difficult to compare unless you also supply the cost of living in each of those countries. Then really compare whether the min wage is too high.
If I were to merely look at the graph, then Australia is a very rich country with lots of savings in the bank, no unemployment, no homelessness, no-one living below the poverty line etc.
Really not sure what the point of the graph is as a thread starter.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Are the reason not obvious to you? It's ok to admit you don't know. If you truly don't know just make a genuine request for more information.

It appears you don't know as you didn't explain it after my initial question. Please provide the 'more information' if you have more information (I'm guessing you will struggle to avoid contradicting your previous strong statement). Odd that you wouldn't just provide that information, but rather post twice inferring there were obvious reasons you were just too busy/haughty to mention.

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

I've spent plenty of time in the real world and have worked for the minimum wage.

Conclusion - If you're on the minimum wage (and you're not a student) you're either too lazy or too stupid to increase your pay grade.

As opposed to having a disability, english as a second language, being a woman, working on a casual basis and having no workplace training.

Conclusion - if you believe in your own inherent erroneous biases, your either too lazy or too stupid to research the matter

 

[RightorKhan]

Not something the OP has ever heard of but this is called science: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150331074345.htm

Interesting outcome.

Meanwhile most people in this world make their living off growing other peoples bank welfare other than actual work. Also cheating tax in the process. Anyone with an investment property is a leaner. Pay your own ******* mortgage.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Not something the OP has ever heard of but this is called science: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150331074345.htm

Interesting outcome.

Meanwhile most people in this world make their living off growing other peoples bank welfare other than actual work. Also cheating tax in the process. Anyone with an investment property is a leaner. Pay your own ******* mortgage.

Interesting is right. I don't think survey responses are really science though! (a) What people say and what they do often don't match exactly; and (b) Easier said than done. Everyone wants to work their dream job, but settling for a dull, poorly-paid or distasteful job... Less likely.

This particular survey seems especially weak as a 'science'.

Given it's Europe I would think that those that live in higher-welfare states have a higher belief in society and therefore a higher want to contribute. If a Govt intervenes in commerce to help those who are unemployed you are also self-selecting in a way (i.e. the people have voted for these governments, so it isn't surprising that they would also believe that people being in work is more valuable than global free market or low-welfare ideas - it is a belief that everyone has a right to work and that the greater good is helped by everyone being able to contribute rather than dog-eat-dog or 'no such thing as society' philosophies).

 

[Pessimistic]

How long has Australia had a minimum wage which is among the highest in the world ?

If the OP is true, surely it (financial disaster) would have happened many times over already ?

In fact we came through the last one in quite good shape

Its a very rich country. the issue is differences of opinion on how it should be shared around


Also note that people are happy to quote the rest of the world when it suits their argument, but rabidly against when it doesn't.