Perth Stadium (Optus Stadium)

[The Speaker]

I am Victorian and live in Victoria.

Most probs bro.

Col and mates have killed the states finances due to gross mismanagement. People cite necessary infrastructure spending, but overlook the real issue which has been a host of , port, rail and infrastructure upgrades to service current and/or potential future mining projects which were both unneeded and unwanted. However, ol pals and donors in the construction industry have gotten rich off it.

The stadium has been a shamozzle from the start. Strung out for political expediency, expect huge cost blowouts and transport issues when the number of trains, local roads and parking space in the city are unable to deal with the bump in demand, especially for Friday night games.

I am Victorian and live in Victoria.

It's just odd how long the libs have managed to string this out for, all the while burning a hole in the states finances. It has been a key ticket item in what, two elections? Still haven't even chosen a final design. They have however picked an incredibly expensive locale to build it, very favorable for mister Packer though and cost projections are that it will be one of the most expensive stadiums in the world.

They would be better off canning it now and spending the money where needed, say the lite rail network, before the state is broke.

Final suggestion, "the emperors new stadium". Of the Hans Christian Anderson kind.

I am Victorian and live in Victoria.

I was thinking more, pork barrel football ground, everyone says they need to bring back the barrel. Or in keeping with an animal theme, white elephant oval. Maybe have Suma or Cummings at the ribbon cutting ceremony. How about the stadium of broken promises, has a house of pain rin g to it?

They can build it piece meal, one stand for every time Barnett can use the concept to get re-elected. Wes-stralya is gonna have one hell of a credit card debt though. No matter, perhaps Packer can provide complimentary paper bags for any retiring elected representative that visits the Casino. Goodwill gesture in recognition of humble service of WA pty. ltd .

I am Victorian and live in Victoria.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

So?

I have moved between states, because I have family in both and studied in both.

I still travel back fairly regularly, though not with the same frequency as in the past.

I may be Victorian, but support WC for a reason. That I spent an appreciable amount of time in the state and at periods throughout my life.

Likewise, it does not effect the veracity of my opinions.

 

[Admiral Byng]

So?

I have moved between states, because I have family in both and studied in both.

I still travel back fairly regularly, though not with the same frequency as in the past.

I may be Victorian, but support WC for a reason. That I spent an appreciable amount of time in the state and at periods throughout my life.

Likewise, it does not effect the veracity of my opinions.

You are perhaps a little out of touch since you left.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

You are perhaps a little out of touch since you left.

Really?

I get the same news as you.

 

[Admiral Byng]

Really?

I get the same news as you.

Exactly. You are only reading the news.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Exactly. You are only reading the news.

Unlike you who is obviously experiencing every moment, of every person, in all of the state simultaneously.

Facts don't change based on proximity.

 

[Admiral Byng]

Unlike you who is obviously experiencing every moment, of every person, in all of the state simultaneously.

Facts don't change based on proximity.

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

I don't share your pessimistic outlook. Things are well underway, I've gone past there and seen it. Ground works have been completed, designs submitted for approval. The winning design to be announced in about 6-8 weeks from now. There's no longer a feeling that this is some hypothetical project, but something real and in progress.

It remains to be seen how ambitious the proposed designs are, if it's something too radical there might be a problem. But I suspect they'll choose a conservative (from an engineering perspective) but "nice" (aesthetically) design. I don't think they'll go for a "wow" stadium.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

I don't share your pessimistic outlook. Things are well underway, I've gone past there and seen it. Ground works have been completed, designs submitted for approval. The winning design to be announced in about 6-8 weeks from now. There's no longer a feeling that this is some hypothetical project, but something real and in progress.

It remains to be seen how ambitious the proposed designs are, if it's something too radical there might be a problem. But I suspect they'll choose a conservative (from an engineering perspective) but "nice" (aesthetically) design. I don't think they'll go for a "wow" stadium.

Its taken a long, long time and two election campaigns to reach this point.

Likewise, they finally start building it when the state can least afford it. Wonder if this was deliberate.

 

[Admiral Byng]

Its taken a long, long time and two election campaigns to reach this point.

Likewise, they finally start building it when the state can least afford it. Wonder if this was deliberate.

I don't think so, in some ways now is the ideal time to build it. The state is not going broke by any stretch. The construction phase of the boom is winding down, very soon there will be lots of extra projects in the normal production phase of their lives that will generate taxes and royalties. With the heat out of the construction sector the stadium won't have to compete with lucrative mining projects for building workers.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

I don't think so, in some ways now is the ideal time to build it. The state is not going broke by any stretch. The construction phase of the boom is winding down, very soon there will be lots of extra projects in the normal production phase of their lives that will generate taxes and royalties. With the heat out of the construction sector the stadium won't have to compete with lucrative mining projects for building workers.

Here you are discussing unskilled labor, skilled labor will still be an issue and labor costs for professionals or tradespeople will be just as high.

Fiscal situation isn't dire, but it isn't great, the next government will either face public service spending cuts or will need to increase tax takings. I can't see anything but an increase to GST being able to make up the shortfall.

 

[Admiral Byng]

Here you are discussing unskilled labor, skilled labor will still be an issue and labor costs for professionals or tradespeople will be just as high.

Fiscal situation isn't dire, but it isn't great, the next government will either face public service spending cuts or will need to increase tax takings. I can't see anything but an increase to GST being able to make up the shortfall.

I think you're just making up what you think I'm talking about.

I think most people are over the whole debate about where to build it or should we build it. I think there is acceptance that it is going to be built, and where we are going to build it, and just want to get into it and get it done.

The project that is far more controversial and less understood, even at only a fifth of the price, is Lizzie Keys. While not everyone likes the idea of a new stadium they kind of accept the need for it.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

I think you're just making up what you think I'm talking about.

I think most people are over the whole debate about where to build it or should we build it. I think there is acceptance that it is going to be built, and where we are going to build it, and just want to get into it and get it done.

The project that is far more controversial and less understood, even at only a fifth of the price, is Lizzie Keys. While not everyone likes the idea of a new stadium they kind of accept the need for it.

As to the first point, no.

My position is clear. People may now well be resigned to the fact but that doesn't mean a) actions taken so far are beyond criticism and b) future processes or plans are beyond criticism.

There was a thread on our board going back years, where I was banging on about the potential for the same issues we have now experienced.

First, the change of venue was a bad idea and it would be used to justify delay and was only about servicing Packers interests. That the delay would be long and the stadium would be used by Barnett as a political tool (took it to two elections and still haven't started construction). That it will be built far later than people are expecting (2018). That it will be tremendously expensive (1bil+). That promised transport upgrades will be canned as a concept (lite rail) based on planned budgetary pressures (which the stadium will contribute to).

Predictions yet to come to pass are, inevitable cost blowouts, the stadium contributing to a substantial budgetary hole for future governments and that there are going to be huge traffic and transport problems especially for Friday night games.

I hope that the stadium is built on time (from now), under budget and does not cause ongoing problems, whether that be fiscal, or infrastructural, but I am not optimistic.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Most probs bro.

Col and mates have killed the states finances due to gross mismanagement. People cite necessary infrastructure spending, but overlook the real issue which has been a host of , port, rail and infrastructure upgrades to service current and/or potential future mining projects which were both unneeded and unwanted. However, ol pals and donors in the construction industry have gotten rich off it.

The stadium has been a shamozzle from the start. Strung out for political expediency, expect huge cost blowouts and transport issues when the number of trains, local roads and parking space in the city are unable to deal with the bump in demand, especially for Friday night games.

I'd actually like evidence for this. Going over the state budget it's easy to see where big bucks have been spent (health and education). WA's budgetary situation isn't unique to the states, irrespective of the fact WA now has a double AA credit rating with "one" of the two major credit agencies.

There isn't any local parking at the stadium. The parking that exists at Crown is already at capacity at peak periods like Friday and Saturday night. So the volume of traffic won't sufficiently increased be beyond the capacity of the local road network because parking is a determinative factor in the amount of people in the area.

Friday nights actually have an earlier peak hour than the rest of the week as well and people that have already commuted to the city won't have to do it again and people commuting into the city for parking will be moving against the flow in a lot of cases, and wont have issues finding parking as people leave as early.

I'm not sure how taking your time ensuring that the specification and details are right is going to lead to broad mismanagement during the construction of the stadium (which once handed over to the major contracted should be as free from government decision making as possible). Previous examples of mismanagement such as the Arena, were a direct result of poor design details and lack of specifications within the original tender documents. The whole internal work package was left out of the original scope of works (along with the underground carpark) as a result of a rushed process.

Then there is the question of government finances again, which are naturally under stress. Holding off the construction, while providing funding from previous budgets to pay for future stadium works is smart government policy given the circumstances. This is consistent with what is occurring with other essential projects like Light Rail which has been allocated money in the 13-14 state budget and within the forward estimates.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Here you are discussing unskilled labor, skilled labor will still be an issue and labor costs for professionals or tradespeople will be just as high.

Sorry but construction costs are substantially lower than 2007-08 when the whole debate around the stadium begun.

 

[Kwality]

Here you are discussing unskilled labor, skilled labor will still be an issue and labor costs for professionals or tradespeople will be just as high.

Fiscal situation isn't dire, but it isn't great, the next government will either face public service spending cuts or will need to increase tax takings. I can't see anything but an increase to GST being able to make up the shortfall.

As you are aware D&M, the Vic Govt feels it is being short changed by the GST, so increasing the GST rate does not make a lot of sense, how does WA fair?

Vic
The meeting also confirmed that Victoria's share of the GST would drop from 90¢ to 88¢ this year, despite the state agitating for a fairer distribution deal. Before the meeting Premier Denis Napthine had called for a minimum 95 per cent return to all states.
Mr O'Brien said it was not fair that NSW received 98¢, Queensland 108¢ and South Australia 128¢.

''Federation needs to be fair to succeed,'' he said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...hael-obrien-20140328-35oj1.html#ixzz2xilL8XyX

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...hael-obrien-20140328-35oj1.html#ixzz2xiiFFrQT

WA
The independent commission said on Friday that WA should get an unprecedented low of 45¢ for every dollar of GST in 2013-14, down from 55¢ in 2012-13. It’s overall GST share will drop by $379 million to $2.49 billion, or 4.9 per cent of the total from 5.9 per cent in 2012-13.

http://www.afr.com/p/national/barnett_challenges_gst_carve_up_03lRVjdQaEgQUg48EgpTUL


The country needs more tax revenue, but when Vic is whinging about 88c in the dollar, WA is looking at 45c, forget an increase in GST to solve the need.

 

[scotty13]

Any pics of the stadium design? Or at least what it could look like (and not the pics of weagles and dockers running out the race)

 

[Admiral Byng]

As to the first point, no.

My position is clear. People may now well be resigned to the fact but that doesn't mean a) actions taken so far are beyond criticism and b) future processes or plans are beyond criticism.

There was a thread on our board going back years, where I was banging on about the potential for the same issues we have now experienced.

First, the change of venue was a bad idea and it would be used to justify delay and was only about servicing Packers interests. That the delay would be long and the stadium would be used by Barnett as a political tool (took it to two elections and still haven't started construction). That it will be built far later than people are expecting (2018). That it will be tremendously expensive (1bil+). That promised transport upgrades will be canned as a concept (lite rail) based on planned budgetary pressures (which the stadium will contribute to).

Predictions yet to come to pass are, inevitable cost blowouts, the stadium contributing to a substantial budgetary hole for future governments and that there are going to be huge traffic and transport problems especially for Friday night games.

I hope that the stadium is built on time (from now), under budget and does not cause ongoing problems, whether that be fiscal, or infrastructural, but I am not optimistic.

As to the first point, I wasn't talking about unskilled labour, I was talking about all forms of labour, skilled, unskilled, professional - that are required to complete the building works. A couple of years ago a big project like the stadium would have needed to compete for all their workforce with big resources construction projects. Now not so much.

The project has been budgeted for, including the transport upgrades to the normal (heavy) train lines. Light rail is not part of the project. The project is a relatively low risk of cost over-runs because the specifications are pretty tight, and the funding/building model they've chosen. I think they've learned a lot of lessons from what went wrong at the Perth Arena, and things are being done very differently this time around. By the way, people are starting to love the Arena now that it's actually up and running and drawing some big name concerts to Perth. I'm not as pessimistic as you, I don't think the costs will blow out, I don't think it will blow a hole in the budget, I don't think it will lead to higher taxes and reduced services.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

As to the first point, no.

My position is clear. People may now well be resigned to the fact but that doesn't mean a) actions taken so far are beyond criticism and b) future processes or plans are beyond criticism.

There was a thread on our board going back years, where I was banging on about the potential for the same issues we have now experienced.

First, the change of venue was a bad idea and it would be used to justify delay and was only about servicing Packers interests. That the delay would be long and the stadium would be used by Barnett as a political tool (took it to two elections and still haven't started construction). That it will be built far later than people are expecting (2018). That it will be tremendously expensive (1bil+). That promised transport upgrades will be canned as a concept (lite rail) based on planned budgetary pressures (which the stadium will contribute to).

Predictions yet to come to pass are, inevitable cost blowouts, the stadium contributing to a substantial budgetary hole for future governments and that there are going to be huge traffic and transport problems especially for Friday night games.

I hope that the stadium is built on time (from now), under budget and does not cause ongoing problems, whether that be fiscal, or infrastructural, but I am not optimistic.

There was no change in location, not really. The Liberal party didn't inherit a stadium project from Labor, they had the $2m major stadium report and what labor had promised in their forward estimates. Which disappears the moment the government changes over.

Back in 2008 both Labor and Liberals promised a new stadium at Subiaco/ Kitchener park during the election. Though the Liberals promise always came with a caveat of reviewing every project over $20m. The whole stadium was put on the back burner quickly after the royalties for regions set aside hundreds of millions of extra dollars for rural WA.

It wasn't so easy for the Liberals to stop the Waterfront project which already had a project vehicle in place with landcorp already reviewing the 2008 (Dubia on Swan) concept and taking public submissions.

Delivery of key rail infrastructure as well as the Perth to Darwin Highway (Tonkin Highway Extension or North Link) has been pushed back to coencide with the completion of current hospital projects and the completion of the Perth Stadium. Which is beyond the 2017 election date.

The cost of quading the Armadale line to Burswood would be negligible and is a necessity if the Thorlie line spur is to be duplicated into a two way rail line and extended in the long term. Would address your primary concern regarding transport.

My one hope is that McGowan doesn't bum the Light Rail in favor of suburban rail projects.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Any pics of the stadium design? Or at least what it could look like (and not the pics of weagles and dockers running out the race)

Nope. The designs are to be released some time around the middle of the year when the consortium is announced to the general public.

 

[Admiral Byng]

Any pics of the stadium design? Or at least what it could look like (and not the pics of weagles and dockers running out the race)

No, sadly not yet. The proposals for the design competition closed earlier this year with three consortia entering their proposals, but these have been kept secret and not published. The winning design is to be announced by end of June.

I can't wait to see it.

 

[scotty13]

Nope. The designs are to be released some time around the middle of the year when the consortium is announced to the general public.

No, sadly not yet. The proposals for the design competition closed earlier this year with three consortia entering their proposals, but these have been kept secret and not published. The winning design is to be announced by end of June.

I can't wait to see it.

Ahh thats dumb... should just announce the top 10 and show the public, then along with the public choose the best one! Unless of course no government money is involved and its wholey private funded, then let the choose whatever.

 

[E92_]

No, sadly not yet. The proposals for the design competition closed earlier this year with three consortia entering their proposals, but these have been kept secret and not published. The winning design is to be announced by end of June.

I can't wait to see it.

I just hope that it doesn't look boring like some of the artist impressions, I always liked the one with all the glass panels on the exterior that could light up to team colours.

 

[Admiral Byng]

I just hope that it doesn't look boring like some of the artist impressions, I always liked the one with all the glass panels on the exterior that could light up to team colours.

Been a while since I've read it, but I think the ability to light up the outside of the stadium in team colours is one of the "must haves" on the list.

I'm hoping they come up with an attractive stadium. But one that can be built using relatively conventional construction techniques. Not something that pushing the limits of engineering just to build it. That's where costs can blow out. For example we don't need a roof like the Bird's Nest Olympic Stadium in China or the bubble roof at AAMI Park in Melbourne. Something like the sail roof at the Adelaide Oval would probably be just as good, while at the same time being visually striking and appealing.

 

[Silent Alarm]

Am I the only one who wants something pretty unconventional looking for the design?

I mean structurally, sure, keep it true and tested. Make it an Etihad Mk II inside and I'll doubt you get a single complaint. There's nothing too interesting about internal designs and levels and tiers.

But on the outside, I'd love for them to test things a bit. Like the Arena, good art gets people talking. I hope it gets a few curious looks and just as many ardent supporters. That's the kind of thing Perth needs. The Adelaide Oval is fairly boring on the exterior, its icon coming from the hill, and I hate that big stand at the opposite end to the hill. It looks bulbous and bloated.

 

[E92_]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind something that looks very unique.