The on topic thread

[jd2010]

How would have it gone if they stuck a load of garbage academy kids like Nicky Hunt in their side? Probably non league by now.

They didnt bounce back up with the older guys did they?

 

[Buckleys Jocks]

Giggs was far from dominating. Gerrard hasnt dominated either at 35.

Wow.

When we made the Champions League final in 2011 everything was going through Giggs, he almost single handedly dismantled Chelsea and Schalke on route to the final.

Regardless of who has been the better out of any of Giggs, Scholes, Lampard or Gerrard, Stevie G's game relied on his athleticism and physical traits more than the others hence why he burned out earlier than they did. Before you get offended that's not a knock on Gerrard, his engine and athleticism were world class in his day, whereas Giggs was a more technical player and was able to adapt his game to combat his declining physical attributes, hence why he was able to dominate late into his 30's.

 

[moomba]

This isn't a right now sort of prospect. Would you rather be a Newcastle/Sunderland supporter going forward with the same practices as now, or would you like to see an overhaul of things and move forward in another direction?

It's a loaded question.

I'd want Southamptons academy. If I put Southamptons academy into Newcastle I would back them to bring plenty of youngsters into their team. If I put Newcastles academy into Southampton I would back them to buy ready made players. It's a chicken or egg scaenario.

Ares Southampton bring through young players because of the quality of their academy, or is their academy so successful because they bring through players. You think one way, I think the other.

In five years time Sunderland will keep flirting with relegation until they're eventually caught up and then that's the PL done for some time. Or they could concentrate on youth development and maybe go down sooner with a rise back up beyond what they've been able to achieve for quite some time. Watch Fulham benefit from Kit Symons youth policy going forward rather than throwing band aids on things like they did with Magath

That may all happen. But you've got it into your head that playing youth is a guarantee of success and playing older players is a guarantee of failure. It just doesn't work like that.

 

[jd2010]

How is this loaded?

Scenario 1: spend money on more older players and finish 12th-20th
Scenario 2: spend money on youth facilities and development and see what happens?

Scenario 1: clubs like Sunderland, Bolton, Portsmouth, Newcastle
Scenario 2: Southampton, Swansea, Fulham (post-Magath), Brentford, Crewe, MK Dons

It's not a who would you rather on March 25, 2015. It's going forward as a club which business model would you prefer?

Not saying it is an exact science. Just look at Crewe and MK Dons, they've had mixed levels of success in the league. But they're seeing that throwing money at things won't put them ahead of the competition so what's the point

 

[moomba]

They didnt bounce back up with the older guys did they?

Which older guys?

Bolton weren't a particularly old team when they got relegated or in their first year in the championship.

 

[moomba]

How is this loaded?

Scenario 1: spend money on more older players and finish 12th-20th
Scenario 2: spend money on youth facilities and development and see what happens?

Scenario 1: clubs like Sunderland, Bolton, Portsmouth, Newcastle
Scenario 2: Southampton, Swansea, Fulham (post-Magath), Brentford

It's not a who would you rather on March 25, 2015. It's going forward as a club which business model would you prefer?

It's loaded because you are making out that only scenario 2 clubs are spending money on youth facilities and development.

I'd choose scenario 3. Spend money on facilities and development, and then build my squad by looking at the players I have, the players in the academy and the players that are available. That may change from year to year. If I see talented players in the academy that are ready for senior football I'd look to open up opportunities for them.

If there are no talented players in the academy I'd be looking for ready made players (probably foreign as they cost much less).

Clubs like Sunderland, Bolton, Newcastle, Southampton, Swansea, Fulham.

 

[Tulip]

Bale was trained at Southampton wasn't he?

And I can't see Sterling starting for Barca/Bayern/Real with who they have on the wings currently.

Bale came to Spurs at 17, Fabregas to Arsenal at 16. Much of a muchness.

 

[jd2010]

Which older guys?

Bolton weren't a particularly old team when they got relegated or in their first year in the championship.

Had guys like Alan Hutton, Petrov, Wheater, Pratley, Danns, McNaughton, Baptiste to name a few

 

[jd2010]

It's loaded because you are making out that only scenario 2 clubs are spending money on youth facilities and development.

I'd choose scenario 3. Spend money on facilities and development, and then build my squad by looking at the players I have, the players in the academy and the players that are available.

Clubs like Sunderland, Bolton, Newcastle, Southampton, Swansea, Fulham.

Obviously you aren't going to play an U21 side in the league. Don't think I ever said that. Sunderland, Newcastle & Bolton can't be used in the same sentence as the likes of Southampton & Swansea as to how a club is run, they are completely different models. Of course all clubs have an academy, and spend some money on it. But are they efficient in the way they are getting the best out of it? Who is the last guy to come out of Sunderland's academy and nail a first team spot? Or Bolton?

Money can be spent but if the people running the club and the academy are incompetent or the club choose to ignore what is going on there (case in point Tottenham under AVB & Redknapp) what is the point?

EDIT: Colback came through. And with poor management by the club he walked out the door for free

 

[moomba]

Had guys like Alan Hutton, Petrov, Wheater, Pratley, Danns, McNaughton, Baptiste to name a few

Bloody hell, half of those are still under 30.
Quite a few weren't at the club in the relegation year or the year after.
Alan Hutton spent two months in 2014 on loan, McNaughton is a loan player as well.

I'll give you Petrov who played in the relegation year.

 

[jd2010]

Bloody hell, half of those are still under 30.
Quite a few weren't at the club in the relegation year or the year after.
Alan Hutton spent two months in 2014 on loan, McNaughton is a loan player as well.

I'll give you Petrov who played in the relegation year.

Still my point is they got relegated and topped up with older been there done that types and didn't get close to coming back up. Signing guys over 28 once you go down is a waste of time in my books

 

[jd2010]

Since you're so hell bent on all clubs caring about youth development a revised scenario for you.

1) Have an academy. Spend money on it. Either through bad scouting initially or bad coaching have average talent. Or ignore the talent that is there. (Spurs pre-Sherwood, Newcastle, Sunderland, Bolton)

2) Have an academy. Spend money on it. Spend money on getting great scouts & coaches. Give talent there a clear pathway forward and actually use it. (Southampton, Brentford, MK Dons, Swansea)

 

[moomba]

I'm not going to keep answering loaded questions if thats OK.

Going around in circles.

 

[jd2010]

That's ok keep refusing to accept some clubs care about youth development more than others. And that their policy doesn't work out better in the long run

 

[SM]

In fairness topping up our very young squad in 2012 with guys like Abdoulaye Faye was one of the reasons that got us promoted. Their experience and level heads helped.

 

[moomba]

That's ok keep refusing to accept some clubs care about youth development more than others. And that their policy doesn't work out better in the long run

Maybe we should wait for the long run before we assess the success (or otherwise) of respective policies.

The club most committed to youth development is Crewe Alex, soon (possibly) to be of the English fourth division.

 

[jd2010]

2009-10 Southampton were League One.

Birmingham 8th, Villa 6th, Sunderland 13th, Bolton 14th, Wolves 15th, 2 leagues above them. All well behind them now. I know which way of a club being run I'd prefer!

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Surely it's a combination of youth and experience that is needed. Youth is still coming through the academies and being picked off by clubs when not given an opportunity so they aren't lost to the game. Look at guys like Shawcross, Chester and Michael Keane from united for instance and half the Leicester team. The youth has to be good enough to break through though. Additionally, the manager has to have a long term view and be happy to invest in the academy and promote them to the first team. They're few managers like that in England in the top flight though.

 

[jd2010]

Look at guys like Shawcross, Chester and Michael Keane from united

I'd say that's the way an academy should work. Not all will make it at the top. And where clubs like Stoke & Hull should look to sign players. Same can be said with Livermore & caulker with us

 

[SM]

Surely it's a combination of youth and experience that is needed. Youth is still coming through the academies and being picked off by clubs when not given an opportunity so they aren't lost to the game. Look at guys like Shawcross, Chester and Michael Keane from united for instance and half the Leicester team. The youth has to be good enough to break through though. Additionally, the manager has to have a long term view and be happy to invest in the academy and promote them to the first team. They're few managers like that in England in the top flight though.

Brady, Dudgeon, Chester, Evans, King, Stewart are all United youngsters who passed through Hull off the top of my head. King scored a hat-trick for Blackburn in the FA Cup recently if I'm not mistaken, and Evans is a regular starter there.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Sorry to change the convo but this is the appropriate place to put this. Enjoy your ban campaigner

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Brady, Dudgeon, Chester, Evans, King, Stewart are all United youngsters who passed through Hull off the top of my head. King scored a hat-trick for Blackburn in the FA Cup recently if I'm not mistaken, and Evans is a regular starter there.

Yep, United's academy churns out decent footballers every season who filter through the leagues.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Our academy is fine, Wilson and Pearson are the 2 big standouts in terms of english players.

 

[moomba]

Premier League clean sheets:

David James - 169
Petr Cech - 162
Mark Schwarzer - 151
David Seaman - 140
Nigel Martyn - 137
Jose Reina - 134
Edwin Van der Sar - 132
Brad Friedel - 132
Peter Schmeichel - 128
Tim Howard - 122
Shay Given - 112
Jussi Jaaskelainen - 108
Thomas Sorenson - 107
Joe Hart - 100

And this years Golden Glove:

Fraser Forster - 13
Ben Foster - 11
Simon Mignolet - 11
Lucasz Fabianski - 11
Joe Hart - 10
David De Gea - 10

 

[moomba]

Our academy would suffer for a few more years.

Our best home grown prospects would all be considered foreign and probably moved on. Brandon Barker is the only one at U18 level or above that is looking ready to break through.