The rucks - who, how many, and impact on the forward line
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SK_MD_#7
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Pierce.
Smoke_Me_AKipper
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Talentwise, our big man stocks are looking pretty good, (apart from experience). The only issue I would look at is who can play that ruck/fwd role cos you can't have 2 rucks in the same side anymore, either 1 ruckman with some kind of relief (Bruce? Lee?), or 1 ruckman and one ruckman who can actually play fwd. Some say Pierce could be that person. How about Hickey though - kicked 3 goals last year before he got injured in one match didn't he?
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Defacto
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pierce
Smoke_Me_AKipper
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I see what you did there...
I was waiting to see who'd pick it up..................................Enter the Dragon (which was on TV either last night or the night before)
That game of Hickey's was when he was playing in the ruck though and pushing forward, like the game the year before when Mac kicked 3 goals in a game. One of Hickey's goals was also after a 50m penalty that took him from about 70m out to 25m out and another came from a mark in the goalsquare that most would say wasn't a mark (didn't hold it anywhere near long enough), so he could have just as easily kicked just the one goal for the game (albeit it was a corker of a goal, from 45m out on the left boundary!). It's a completely different ball-game when you're actually playing forward and he was pretty much terrible at it the year before, when he was playing 2nd-fiddle to Mac. That said, I did think he was reasonably effective at times when stationed forward last year for spells, as his big tank allowed him to lead out to the flanks well to take marks.
As for Pierce, I'm not sure even those who are very bullish about his long term prospects expect to see him do much at AFL level this year, so I wouldn't exactly be building our forward structure around him playing the forward/ruck role. I'd suggest he is still very raw and has only just turned 20yo (very late year birthday).
Defacto
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another great post!!
how do you see our setup long term ARR? do you we go with as our no 1 ruck and who do we use as the resting ruck and do we play them fwd or back?
myself personally i think we have 4 ruckmen right now who could be good no 1 ruckman, but the unknown is who is our resting ruck...not sure what the solution is
L_W_P
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Could we get away with 2 ruckmen on the field ala Hawthorn?
Hale/Ceglar get stationed about 30-50m out and take everything forward of centre. McEvoy sits a kick behind the play and uses his intercept marking as an extra defender. He takes most of the ruckwork back of centre.
We could play Hickey forward and Longer behind the ball.
Billy then goes flat out for the first 5-7 mins of the last qtr, smashing into the opposition ruck at every oppertunity, before getting subbed off for a running player.
Works for the back to back premier, why not give it a crack?
Hale/Ceglar get stationed about 30-50m out and take everything forward of centre. McEvoy sits a kick behind the play and uses his intercept marking as an extra defender. He takes most of the ruckwork back of centre.
We could play Hickey forward and Longer behind the ball.
Billy then goes flat out for the first 5-7 mins of the last qtr, smashing into the opposition ruck at every oppertunity, before getting subbed off for a running player.
Works for the back to back premier, why not give it a crack?
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I think this is underplaying Hickey in that game. I rewatched it recently and he was all over the ground taking marks and using the ball effectively until he injured himself I think in the third quarter. No there is no certainty that he will go forward and do the same every week but the reality is we dont need a ruckman to be kicking 3 goals a week anyway.
Strahany
Premiership Player
The most important thing to do with our ruck stocks, IMO, is to give Longer a good run to see what he can do. Hickey is a long way ahead, as far as talent is concerned, but it may be the case that Longer has improved, which, combined with Hickey's injury concerns, makes Billy the best option for us. We can't afford to have one or the other be languishing (struggling to cope with injury, or due to form, or whatever else), even if it means the other thrives. Play them both, pick our favourite, but then manage them so as to ensure that the "other ruck" is still playing well enough to be worth some solid trade value in the near future.
Longer played nearly every game last year. Just play who is in form.
gringo2011
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Yeah I was at that game and he had a blinder that day. On a side note he is noticeably bigger this year he looks 10 kgs heavier. It might not suit his knee but he would be much harder to out muscle now. I went to preseason training the last 2 years and he has completely changed his body shape. He looked gangly and awkward last year, he looks more at home too. I think he could be a bit of a bonus for us if he gets the injuries out of the way. He's a great character also.
Smoke_Me_AKipper
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...and that is the question, can we play two in the same side or are they all just number 1 ruckmen? Like you said, there is not an easy solution. They might have to try different combos of guys out to see. My gut feel is that they go with Hickey to start with and use Lee or Bruce as relief but what do I know?!?
CursingFijian
Knight of the Square Table
Has Bruce actually contested a ruck for us? If so how does he go?
Yeah I agree, Hickey was getting involved around the ground well. It was helped by the Giants attitude towards matchups though - their ruckman also kicked 3 in the first 30 mins, their guy stayed forward a lot and let Hickey go, but then Hickey couldn't get back to cover their guy. They also didn't tag in that game until the 2nd half. It was like they were treating it as a day to play a different type of game as they thought they had the beating of us.
Cheers.
Long term I think Hickey has the most rounded game out of himself, Longer and Holmes and I think that is likely to get better if he is now over the knee problems that he's reportedly had for two years and which he says have prevented him from even doing leg squats in that time.
If he hasn't even been able to do squats I reckon it's fair to say that his leap and consequently ruckwork will have suffered as a result and that if he is now able to build that leg strength and power, that his ruckwork will benefit and that that will help bridge the gap in quality there between himself, Billy and Jason, which could put him well ahead overall- unless one or both the other two develop some sort of ball winning and/or marking game in the meantime.
Haven't seen enough of Pierce to be able to talk informedly about him, but if we are hoping he will eventually have the game to be able to play mainly forward effectively, while also pinch-hitting in the ruck, then that could be really interesting, but that then leaves the question of what we do with all of McCartin, White, Lee, Bruce and even Membrey, as there would then only be as few as two spots available for all of that group of 5, maybe only one, if Rooey is still around by the time Pierce is playing seniors.
What I can probably see happening is that we will be very open to trading at least one or two of the following group at some stage over the next couple of years, in order to get us some of the extra picks we're wanting in the first 3 rounds of those drafts: Hickey, Longer, Holmes, Lee and Bruce- due to the fact that we won't be able to fit all of them into the team at one time and it's not worth having anyone with pretty decent currency just spending most of their time in the VFL- especially if you're after extra picks in the draft.
In the short term though I have a strong feeling that we have Bruce pencilled in for the sort of role Rhys was playing last season, doing a lot of the grunt work and leading far and wide and also pinch-hitting in the ruck. If what someone (probably Gringo) said the other day is correct- that Lee and Membrey are fighting for one spot- then that likely means that we don't have Lee in line for 2nd ruck, as Membrey wouldn't be effective in the ruck.
I'm very well aware of how well Hickey played that day (I was there and have seen it more than once on Foxtel since, including just a couple of weeks ago again myself), and I consider it one of the best games I've seen live from someone playing ruck for years- especially for us- but running around the ground pretty much by yourself and plucking grabs is very, very different from being stationed in the forward line all game and having someone on your hammer, trying to stop you marking it, every time you go for the ball.
This is likely why he has found it much more difficult to perform anywhere near that well as he did that day (or in that game v Sydney at the SCG late the year before, or his game v Collingwood in his last year for Gold Coast, when he took 7 or 8 contested marks) when actually playing forward, as was the case with Mac, previously. If he is going to be playing forward his kicking would also be a major questionmark for me, both for goal and into the forward 50. I know who I'd rather be leading out to out of say Lee or Hickey!
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Giles was played as a forward if that's what your hinting at.
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Took 2 marks Hickey took 8 and kicked 3 goals and had 19 possessions.
You've mentioned this before, so yes, I'm pretty sure most, if not all of us realise this, even if we weren't aware of it at the time.
As others have said to you before though, if it was two others in a midfield battle who were going head to head, but playing wide of each other- like Mummy and Hickey were- and both had say 30+ possies, that wouldn't make either of their games less dominant or significant.
Mummy won the hitouts battle comfortably, but I don't see anyone talking up Hickey's past ruckwork. Hopefully it will be better in the future thanks to stronger/more powerful or explosive legs and/or more overall strength though. Time will tell.
Yes he took more around the ground marks, and got outside a bit... his goals were fairly interesting.
Mumford more contested posessions, more clearances, his team had more clearances as he had more than double in hit outs and hit outs to adv.
it was the classic case of both exposing each others weakness and exploiting them... but in areas both were well beaten.
Hickeys opponent in the first 4 games was named in the best three players in their team. Helost the hit outs (why Ben was critisised) more than 2 o 1
I dont rate Tom highly, as we know. He is slow for a guy so thin, lacks presence/strength in the contest and has average skills. He gets flogged in the ruck contestest, only averages 12 touches per game, doesnt mark the ball much and has only hit the scoreboard in about 5 of his 30 games... he is overrated imo and wont be on the list (traded) by 2016 i think.... people want him to be good, so focus on his positives, dismiss his weaknesses.
Longer, is younger, hardly touches it, and has little confidence ATM
but is aggressive, contests the ruck better, is bigger, stronger and more durable
Pierce
a beanpole... not ready for any AFL role
Holmes... better athlete than either... better tap ruckman than otheralready
just doesnt know how to play footy yet.
does not demand the footy, and does not yet know where or how to dispose of the ball
all fourruckmen are young enough to improve and take the next step though
Mumford more contested posessions, more clearances, his team had more clearances as he had more than double in hit outs and hit outs to adv.
it was the classic case of both exposing each others weakness and exploiting them... but in areas both were well beaten.
Hickeys opponent in the first 4 games was named in the best three players in their team. Helost the hit outs (why Ben was critisised) more than 2 o 1
I dont rate Tom highly, as we know. He is slow for a guy so thin, lacks presence/strength in the contest and has average skills. He gets flogged in the ruck contestest, only averages 12 touches per game, doesnt mark the ball much and has only hit the scoreboard in about 5 of his 30 games... he is overrated imo and wont be on the list (traded) by 2016 i think.... people want him to be good, so focus on his positives, dismiss his weaknesses.
Longer, is younger, hardly touches it, and has little confidence ATM
but is aggressive, contests the ruck better, is bigger, stronger and more durable
Pierce
a beanpole... not ready for any AFL role
Holmes... better athlete than either... better tap ruckman than otheralready
just doesnt know how to play footy yet.
does not demand the footy, and does not yet know where or how to dispose of the ball
all fourruckmen are young enough to improve and take the next step though
the object of any player... is to beat their opponent. or in the midfield... as a group, beat the othegroup.
if you get thirty, and your opponent does.... both of you have been good offensively and not great defesively. It does depend on the type of possesion, the quality of possession also.
I think Hickey had his best game R2
in saying that his opponent dominated ruck? and was GWS second best player.... so begs the question
Which player lowered their colours?
if you get thirty, and your opponent does.... both of you have been good offensively and not great defesively. It does depend on the type of possesion, the quality of possession also.
I think Hickey had his best game R2
in saying that his opponent dominated ruck? and was GWS second best player.... so begs the question
Which player lowered their colours?
