The situation in St Louis

[Herne Hill Hammer]

So they all collectively threw bottles? One person threw one bottle?

To borrow a line from Gough, who's they?

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

If you've actually been watching you'll see a lot of force is being used on people who are not looting, robbing or anything remotely wrong. Hell they've even been tear gassing and shooting rubber bullets at reporters

Hey, they were earplugs ok?

 

[pokerspiv]

even by your own example he was within 6.4 metres when he was shot, its a completely legal shoot.

ITS NOT ABOUT JUST THE KNIFE ITS HIS ACTIONS HE WALKS TOWARDS THEM WITH THE KNIFE!!!

The question isn't whether it was legal, the question is whether or not there's a better way to handle these situations.

Nobody doubts that the police followed the proper procedures in this case, it's that the procedures result in a lot more deaths in the US than they do in any other country.

People go nuts with knives in Australia and the UK too. They rarely get gunned down, and as far as I know we don't have an epidemic of police deaths either.

They could have taken out the guy's legs and he might have survived. Why is there a need to shoot to kill in any situation where police draw their weapons? That is the problem here.

In actual fact the police could have simply remained in their vehicle in this case and been perfectly safe. The guy was looking to commit suicide, they didn't have to accommodate him.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

The question isn't whether it was legal, the question is whether or not there's a better way to handle these situations.

Nobody doubts that the police followed the proper procedures in this case, it's that the procedures result in a lot more deaths in the US than they do in any other country.

People go nuts with knives in Australia and the UK too. They rarely get gunned down, and as far as I know we don't have an epidemic of police deaths either.

They could have taken out the guy's legs and he might have survived. Why is there a need to shoot to kill in any situation where police draw their weapons? That is the problem here.

In actual fact the police could have simply remained in their vehicle in this case and been perfectly safe. The guy was looking to commit suicide, they didn't have to accommodate him.

Shoot him with a gun, or give him a taser. Both ways stop the assailant, only one leaves them dead.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

The question isn't whether it was legal, the question is whether or not there's a better way to handle these situations.

Nobody doubts that the police followed the proper procedures in this case, it's that the procedures result in a lot more deaths in the US than they do in any other country.

People go nuts with knives in Australia and the UK too. They rarely get gunned down, and as far as I know we don't have an epidemic of police deaths either.

They could have taken out the guy's legs and he might have survived. Why is there a need to shoot to kill in any situation where police draw their weapons? That is the problem here.

In actual fact the police could have simply remained in their vehicle in this case and been perfectly safe. The guy was looking to commit suicide, they didn't have to accommodate him.

Police response for a suspect approaching with a knife is exactly the same in Australia as the US.

Police aim for centre mass because it's easy to hit, I assume you don't have much experience with guns. Hitting a moving target in the leg?

Even most riflemen would miss.

Stay in their vehicle? You mean get back into their vehicle, after he produced the knife.

We don't have an epidemic of police deaths in Australia for a number of reasons, including but not limited to a better safety net, bugger all full on poor people, virtually no ghettos, realistic gun laws, no 3 strike policies, better education and healthcare system. Better avenues to employment, better pay and working conditions. Very few gangs.

As result of all of these things we have a lot less wide spread causes for a crime epidemic and the few crims we have are less desperate.

You can not disregard the absolute shithole that is the us and say well they should change their policy.

Britain also is no where near the levels of crime that the US has nor are police targeted. (you also disregarding the size of Britain compared to America response teams like the UK has are not economicly feasible in alot of larger countries)

When major social changes go through the US they can look at changing it to a British policing system, no point adopting ours because ITS EXACTLY THE SAME.

People just don't realise what a shithole the us is, no gangs in the UK or Aus go around killing people as part of an right of passage.

People don't get killed for entering the wrong neighbourhood, police aren't targeted for doing their job.

Does this justify all the things the cops in the us do such as buy armoured vehicles and pointing guns at unarmed individuals obviously not, but there was nothing wrong with what they did.

We've had taser as explained not a realistic option.

Shooting in the leg, will never be implemented you cannot expect a police officer when a suspect is approaching with a weapon to successfully hit the suspect in the leg. It's just the dumbest idea I here put out their here's why:

Centre mass is not aimed at killing the target it's aimed at hitting the target, you aim at centre mass as a cop for the same reason 90% of military grunts aim at centre mass, shooting extremities vastly increases the odds of missing also suggesting using a gun, a weapon designed to kill in a non lethal way risks producing a dangerous attitude within the force that a gun can be used in a "non lethal" way. It risks making matters worse as police may adopt a cavalier attitude to discharging the weapon because it's "non lethal"

Police getting back into their vehicle is a sensible option, however spontaneous knife defence course show statistics turning your back on someone with a knife is a bad idea ontop of that

Once police are back in the vehicle they are virtually trapped inside and need to call another unit in.
Now police are on the back foot, the man has a knife and has threatened the police so another unit arrives are they to stay in their cars as well?

Remember the procedure must be as universally applied as possible, ergo your suggesting anytime someone gets out a knife police should stay in their cars and wait it out.

So when do the police try to arrest the subject, when do they move in? EVERY lethal incident is reviewed not only by police but independent boards at a state and federal level in the UK, US, Canadian, Australia and others.

You act like there aren't hundreds of people who've dedicated their careers to finding realistic ways to reduce deaths by police whilst still allowing them to do their jobs.

What people don't realise is that in the UK police respond in most cases the same way it's just delayed. Now yes in London the met has their armed response units but outside that armed response unit is one or two dedicated officers who rock up armed and if someone comes at them with a knife they will drop them without hesitation.

It's accepted that the safety of the officers in this situation is paramount.

 

[pokerspiv]

Stay in their vehicle? You mean get back into their vehicle, after he produced the knife.

What I meant was that the subject was not bothering anyone. He was specifically waiting for police to arrive. If they had stayed in their car and observed, instead of getting out with guns drawn he might still be alive.

Yeah, the guy had a knife, but he wasn't approaching anyone with it until the police challenged him. There had been guys hanging around filming him for half an hour before the police arrived.

The guy was obviously mentally ill, and police could have easily subdued him without killing him if they hadn't been so gung ho. For a start, they could have parked further away and taken him down with a tazer from 35 feet. What they actually did was pull up right alongside, draw guns, and then shoot him when he took 2 steps towards them. They escalated the situation.

I don't think they did anything illegal, but if police had have taken a more cautious approach the guy would probably be in a mental hospital now receiving treatment, instead of dead.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Shoot him with a gun, or give him a taser. Both ways stop the assailant, only one leaves them dead.

Tasers aren't some scifi weapon, if the prongs miss or don't attach correctly the weapon is useless, once the taser is fired "reloading" takes quite some time.
Further more Tasers "reduce" the likelihood of inflicting fatal injuries, they are still a potentially lethal weapon.

They are not a non fatal option and there use as such has seen wide spread use of Tasers being used in situations that were completely unwarranted. A prime example of using a weapon that can cause death being used far to liberally as a result of this "myth" that they aren't fatal (and people want to start spreading myths that firearms can be used in a non lethal way :eek )

This has lead to NSW police retraining their officers and the "Tasers kill" campaign which currently there is a push for it to adopted throughout the aussie police forces.

 

[pokerspiv]

They are not a non fatal option and there use as such has seen wide spread use of Tasers being used in situations that were completely unwarranted. A prime example of using a weapon that can cause death being used far to liberally as a result of this "myth" that they aren't fatal (and people want to start spreading myths that firearms can be used in a non lethal way :eek )

Surely though a guy wandering around on his own with a knife is the perfect time to use a taser. He can't hurt you unless he closes, unlike a suspect with a gun. The issue with tasers is that police keep using them on unarmed people, which is completely unnecessary. Good example being "don't tase me bro", where they basically tasered him because he was a jerk.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

What I meant was that the subject was not bothering anyone. He was specifically waiting for police to arrive. If they had stayed in their car and observed, instead of getting out with guns drawn he might still be alive.

Yeah, the guy had a knife, but he wasn't approaching anyone with it until the police challenged him. There had been guys hanging around filming him for half an hour before the police arrived.

The guy was obviously mentally ill, and police could have easily subdued him without killing him if they hadn't been so gung ho. For a start, they could have parked further away and taken him down with a tazer from 35 feet. What they actually did was pull up right alongside, draw guns, and then shoot him when he took 2 steps towards them. They escalated the situation.

I don't think they did anything illegal, but if police had have taken a more cautious approach the guy would probably be in a mental hospital now receiving treatment, instead of dead.

Watch the video again, the police place their hands on the guns ready to draw them if needed (which in a country with wide spread guns is needed) they pull out their guns when he refuses to show his hands (something I do not support personally)

Whats this stay in the vehicle s**t? They were there respond to someone shop lifting, he matched the description OF COURSE they approached him.

It hasn't even been confirmed wether they have Tasers. Actually read what I have said.

The reason the cops pull up along side is in case he tries to flee, this is getting ******* ridiculous.

Your not looking at things from the polices pov (they are the ones responding)
It was a petty theft the bloke was standing around.
They pulled up and began to approach.
They moved back to the vehicle told him to place the weapon on the ground, multiple times. He continued towards them (alot more then 2 steps btw)

The police didn't provoke s**t, he robbed a shop they responded as is their ******* job.

Even if they pulled up across the road they still would have got out and walked over to the suspect.

 

[pokerspiv]

The police didn't provoke s**t, he robbed a shop they responded as is their ******* job.

Even if they pulled up across the road they still would have got out and walked over to the suspect.

The guy robbed the shop purely to provoke police. He took 2 red bulls and put them on the ground and stood around waiting for police to turn up. Like I said, this was suicide by cop rather than a robbery.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Surely though a guy wandering around on his own with a knife is the perfect time to use a taser. He can't hurt you unless he closes, unlike a suspect with a gun. The issue with tasers is that police keep using them on unarmed people, which is completely unnecessary. Good example being "don't tase me bro", where they basically tasered him because he was a jerk.

The problem is The push to have Tasers used by all police is a political one because pollies don't have the balls to challenge "industry experts" about their use.

The problem is they shouldn't be used on an unarmed suspect and often times using them on an armed suspect is not a realistic option.

Initially taser deployment in Sydney was spot on only specially trained senior constables had them. General duties cops should never have them.
C spray is a far superior option. Especially for a knife attack.

But the distance with this attacker C spray wouldn't stop him in time.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

The guy robbed the shop purely to provoke police. He took 2 red bulls and put them on the ground and stood around waiting for police to turn up. Like I said, this was suicide by cop rather than a robbery.

And the cops did not have that information.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

American cops kill far too many people, with no consequences. That's a fact.

Hell, in NY they just choke held an unarmed guy to death, a move against their direct polices, with no consequence.

Sure sure, in this case they were justified, or whatever it is you are arguing, but it's part of their culture to shoot first, and maybe ask questions later. A good cop would not have ended up needing to shoot a mentally ill guy like this.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

American cops kill far too many people, with no consequences. That's a fact.

Hell, in NY they just choke held an unarmed guy to death, a move against their direct polices, with no consequence.

Sure sure, in this case they were justified, or whatever it is you are arguing, but it's part of their culture to shoot first, and maybe ask questions later. A good cop would not have ended up needing to shoot a mentally ill guy like this.

Have you actually listened to a word I've said taken my comments and applied them to the video as I've suggested?

There is obviously a lot ******* wrong with American culture especially among the police.

I've stated many times. That does not mean what these cops did was wrong. If you can't isolate the police who did there job right and those that tear gas reporters because, "well they were there"

What use is there continuing? You want to lump them in together or view the situation without considering the officers perspective. That's your prerogative.

But I'm not going to continue explaining to couch potatos that you should consider the event on its own based on what the police witnessed before lumping these two officers with the campaigners we've seen carrying on ad nauseam.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Have you actually listened to a word I've said taken my comments and applied them to the video as I've suggested?

There is obviously a lot ******* wrong with American culture especially among the police.

I've stated many times. That does not mean what these cops did was wrong. If you can't isolate the police who did there job right and those that tear gas reporters because, "well they were there"

What use is there continuing? You want to lump them in together or view the situation without considering the officers perspective. That's your prerogative.

But I'm not going to continue explaining to couch potatos that you should consider the event on its own based on what the police witnessed before lumping these two officers with the campaigners we've seen carrying on ad nauseam.

What i am saying is that pulling up close to the guy, drawing guns, then shooting when he took a step towards them isn't the smartest approach if you are interested in deescalating a situation. Sadly the first thought to often isn't to deescalate. It's to get right in there and if necessary pull the trigger as a bail out option.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Probably didn't need to shoot him up like swiss cheese either.

 

[The Coup]

I think the point that often gets lost is that as even a sizeable minority of the community don't feel like they can trust the police: then something needs to change. Policing is absolutely critical to remain completely neutral on ethnic, class, gender and religious lines if you want a truly democratic society.

And once a segment of the community loses that trust, especially when theyre the majority like in Ferguson, then systemic change is needed at the police department, whether you feel that individual cops might lose out on some of their rights or not.

 

[The Coup]

Another 18 year old shot in ferguson.

Cops claiming he pointed a gun at then, others saying he was unarmed.

 

[Jafa]

Another 18 year old shot in ferguson.

Cops claiming he pointed a gun at then, others saying he was unarmed.

It looks like there is tape on this one that would suggest that he did in fact pull a gun. I must say - given the cop killings in recent times any one with the hint of a weapon is going to get taken down by the police over there.

 

[Jafa]

So there is footage (security) that does appear to show the guy pointing something at the police. It's a fair way off though so it's not entirely clear what's going on.

It will be interesting to see if Sharpton and his criminal mates go near this one. It doesn't really fit their narrative so possibly not I think.

 

[The Coup]

I think this is escalating in a way the police (and the conservative right) might not have anticipated. They're missing the point big time.

They keep thinking its about individual cases and individual facts. Even if this latest kid pulled something on the cops, its still another dead kid.

It gets to a point where blacks will just stop even trying to play along and will start shooting back out of self defence. Malcolm X called it 50 years ago. Nothing has changed (RIP Tupac).

 

[The Coup]

Police ....
It's accepted that the safety of the officers in this situation is paramount.

Reasonable post andthe most important thing for Australia is to realise what we do differently that makes it better here.

Number one thing is the lack of privatised prisons (though that is increasing) as the profit motive directly leads to the prison gang culture which eventually leads to street gang culture.

It is starting to go the other way here imo.

 

[Geelong_Bisons_#36]

Witnesses on the scene reported that Martin was running away at the time of the shooting, which would also contradict the officer’s version of events. Despite the fact that he was alive for 30 minutes after the shooting, no ambulance was ever called, instead the police left his body lay in the parking lot for over two hours for onlookers to see.
Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/pr...urb-police-kill-teenager/#UtxV6P3qMbEZwvIo.99

 

[Geelong_Bisons_#36]

Looks like the American cops didn't quite get the message that was sent to them this week.
How long before the next dead pig?

 

[Geelong_Bisons_#36]

There is absolutely no way you can tell from that video what is in his hands.
What about the dashcam in the cop car?
What about the body cam on the cop?
Would you believe it, but they were both turned off!! How convenient for the officer