The "smoking gun"....

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Ancient Tiger

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In all of this saga, there has been very little hard evidence presented to reach a "beyond reasonable doubt" verdict for ASADA. Now I know WADA does not require this for infractions (it has to be somewhere between this and balance of probabilities) but I think there is one piece of evidence that may help either nail the Bombers or at least, help set them free.
The now infamous interview by Nick McKenzie of Stephen Dank, in which he said he gave the players Thymosin beta 4, had one very important line redacted. The dosage of the drug given...


NM: How often were Essendon players taking Thymosin Beta 4?

SD: [Explains the dosage level but asks that this be not published].




Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-science-of-stephen-dank-20130823-2shhd.html#ixzz3E1mJyqzP

Now it would be highly unlikely, but still possible, that Dank made a slip up on the drug name. However, if he gave the dosages of Thymosin beta 4 he could not possibly have made a slip of the tongue there. Conversely, if the dosages mentioned to Nick McKenzie were consistent with Thymomodulin then that would be the evidence that all Bomber fans would be looking for to throw enough doubt as to make the ADVRP question the strength of the evidence.

For Thymomodulin the suggested dosage regime is: 10-20 mg/day for 30 days followed by 20-50 mg/week.

For Thymosin beta 4 the suggested dosage regime is: One vial (10mg) per suncutaneous injection per week for 6 consecutive weeks, then 10mg per month.

So the dosage is very different for both drugs.

Now ASADA have the tapes from the interview. It would be very interesting to know what the dosing regime is that was told to Nick McKenzie. Maybe it is "the smoking gun" that ASADA were looking for....
 
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For Thymomodulin the suggested dosage regime is: 10-20 mg/day for 30 days followed by 20-50 mg/week.

For Thymosin beta 4 the suggested dosage regime is: One vial (10mg) per suncutaneous injection per week for 6 consecutive weeks, then 10mg per month.

So the dosage is very different for both drugs.
We already know that Bombers players were receiving weekly injections, not daily injections.

It's Thymosin Beta 4 - anyone who can't see this is blind
 

base615

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I agree wholeheartedly with you but this has been discussed ad infinitum
 

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For Thymomodulin the suggested dosage regime is: 10-20 mg/day for 30 days followed by 20-50 mg/week.

For Thymosin beta 4 the suggested dosage regime is: One vial (10mg) per suncutaneous injection per week for 6 consecutive weeks, then 10mg per month.

that said, can you be sure that someone who was injecting players with AOD would give players the suggested dosages for other substances?
 
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In all of this saga, there has been very little hard evidence presented to reach a "beyond reasonable doubt" verdict for ASADA. Now I know WADA does not require this for infractions (it has to be somewhere between this and balance of probabilities) but I think there is one piece of evidence that may help either nail the Bombers or at least, help set them free.
The now infamous interview by Nick McKenzie of Stephen Dank, in which he said he gave the players Thymosin beta 4, had one very important line redacted. The dosage of the drug given...


NM: How often were Essendon players taking Thymosin Beta 4?

SD: [Explains the dosage level but asks that this be not published].




Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-science-of-stephen-dank-20130823-2shhd.html#ixzz3E1mJyqzP

Now it would be highly unlikely, but still possible, that Dank made a slip up on the drug name. However, if he gave the dosages of Thymosin beta 4 he could not possibly have made a slip of the tongue there. Conversely, if the dosages mentioned to Nick McKenzie were consistent with Thymomodulin then that would be the evidence that all Bomber fans would be looking for to throw enough doubt as to make the ADVRP question the strength of the evidence.

For Thymomodulin the suggested dosage regime is: 10-20 mg/day for 30 days followed by 20-50 mg/week.

For Thymosin beta 4 the suggested dosage regime is: One vial (10mg) per suncutaneous injection per week for 6 consecutive weeks, then 10mg per month.

So the dosage is very different for both drugs.

Now ASADA have the tapes from the interview. It would be very interesting to know what the dosing regime is that was told to Nick McKenzie. Maybe it is "the smoking gun" that ASADA were looking for....
Actually AT they don't. ASADA requisitioned what they could, and that didn't include off the record details
 
In all of this saga, there has been very little hard evidence presented to reach a "beyond reasonable doubt" verdict for ASADA. Now I know WADA does not require this for infractions (it has to be somewhere between this and balance of probabilities) but I think there is one piece of evidence that may help either nail the Bombers or at least, help set them free.
The now infamous interview by Nick McKenzie of Stephen Dank, in which he said he gave the players Thymosin beta 4, had one very important line redacted. The dosage of the drug given...


NM: How often were Essendon players taking Thymosin Beta 4?

SD: [Explains the dosage level but asks that this be not published].




Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-science-of-stephen-dank-20130823-2shhd.html#ixzz3E1mJyqzP

Now it would be highly unlikely, but still possible, that Dank made a slip up on the drug name. However, if he gave the dosages of Thymosin beta 4 he could not possibly have made a slip of the tongue there. Conversely, if the dosages mentioned to Nick McKenzie were consistent with Thymomodulin then that would be the evidence that all Bomber fans would be looking for to throw enough doubt as to make the ADVRP question the strength of the evidence.

For Thymomodulin the suggested dosage regime is: 10-20 mg/day for 30 days followed by 20-50 mg/week.

For Thymosin beta 4 the suggested dosage regime is: One vial (10mg) per suncutaneous injection per week for 6 consecutive weeks, then 10mg per month.

So the dosage is very different for both drugs.

Now ASADA have the tapes from the interview. It would be very interesting to know what the dosing regime is that was told to Nick McKenzie. Maybe it is "the smoking gun" that ASADA were looking for....
I don't believe they have the tape/recordings, AT.

B&M wouldn't release them, only the published article.
 

onemancyclone

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Is there much variation between suggested doses and real world doses? I take a medication in a dose roughly 3x the recommended maximum (by the manufacturer). That's not to suggest a question in ethics, but rather a licensed practitioner can obtain authority for scripts outside the suggested norms, or for different reasons (to go 'off label'). Setting aside the argument over whether SD would vary doses from recommendations, and whether or not he had authority to dose any amount at all, it leaves for me the question of whether or not recommended dosages can be relied upon in the manner that is central to the OP's argument.

I am not a medical practitioner, and hence not an authority, and I don't have a view either way - but rather asking the question in interest.
 

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What do you mean they wouldn't release them. I don't think they would have a choice if ASADA requested them
I'm fairly sure I read elsewhere all ASADA got was what was public.

Do ASADA's powers to compel reach journalists?

The old journalistic privilege etc. Maybe they could get it through court. But they reply on people trusting them leak what may be sensitive information and know B&M won't divulge information that was off record etc, if people think they'll just sell out, their careers are pretty much screwed IMO
 

Ancient Tiger

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Actually AT they don't. ASADA requisitioned what they could, and that didn't include off the record details
Fair enough Lance. I thought that ASADA could get off the record information as long as it didn't give away personal identities that asked to be kept secret. Not sure why Dank would bother telling him the dosage regime then ask for it to be off the record. Seems like a crucial bit of info is there but no one can access....
Imagine if it supported the Bombers and it couldn't be used as their defense!
 
THe one think AT pointed too though is the reasoning why the dosages weren't published at Danks request..

I feel he knew he was naming Tb4, but the dosage levels had the change to bring him undone with any medical knowledge. I think in typical Dank style he was talking s**t. But, it is part of the reason I don't trust Dank no matter which way you take him
 

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I'm fairly sure I read elsewhere all ASADA got was what was public.

Do ASADA's powers to compel reach journalists?

The old journalistic privilege etc. Maybe they could get it through court. But they reply on people trusting them leak what may be sensitive information and know B&M won't divulge information that was off record etc, if people think they'll just sell out, their careers are pretty much screwed IMO

In regards to ASADA's powers, they can request anybody if they believe they are a witness. I am not 100% about Journalistic Privellage but will look it up
 
Do you work for the bombers?

I mean its either that you are clearly disturbingly deluded. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt

How many times to we have to say it LU is paid per post here as EFC PR/Propaganda.
 

Ancient Tiger

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Is there much variation between suggested doses and real world doses? I take a medication in a dose roughly 3x the recommended maximum (by the manufacturer). That's not to suggest a question in ethics, but rather a licensed practitioner can obtain authority for scripts outside the suggested norms, or for different reasons (to go 'off label'). Setting aside the argument over whether SD would vary doses from recommendations, and whether or not he had authority to dose any amount at all, it leaves for me the question of whether or not recommended dosages can be relied upon in the manner that is central to the OP's argument.

I am not a medical practitioner, and hence not an authority, and I don't have a view either way - but rather asking the question in interest.
You are correct to a point. Dosages can vary greatly for many substances. The problem is there is very little information for either drug out there. Giving thymomodulin via the parenteral route is uncommon. Most information for it is for oral route where doses vary from 80mg per day to 200mg per day. However, the doses usually are varied to treat disease.
For thymosin, I looked up weight lifting forums to get the recommended dosage. Didn't seem to vary much (unless you are a horse!!!).
 
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Considering that whatever supplements were given were not given according to normal dosage rates (according to what has been made public) so I think that trying to identify what was given according to dosage rates might be just a little dodgy.

The only way this can be finalised now is the the SCNs to proceed and get any responses. ASADA can then determine to proceed if the have sufficient evidence, continue to investigate if there is more to do or to discontinue the investigation if there is not sufficient evidence to continue.

Only if it reaches the stage where Infraction Notices are issued and the players have to front the anti doping panel will we see the evidence. In spite of how it has looked given the public commentary, no player has yet been convicted and I do not share the "hang 'em high because they doped" point of view nor do I follow the "ASADA has no evidence" point of view.

We simply haven't seen yet what ASADA has relied on to issue the SCNs and since it has passed external expert review, its probably safe to assume that the evidence gatthered so far has some substance. Either way, proceedings from here, assuming no further delays, will likely give some kind of resolution
 

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The logic put forward by Essendon that they haven't done anything wrong makes absolutely no sense.

Now that the players and AFLPA have come out and said they won't deal means that if ASADA, and I do believe they have it, produce the smoking gun, then
half the Essendon list will want out. And who the bloody hell could blame them.
 

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