The state of the game internationally

[StevenFutureAFL]

How would we even know how big the gulf is? I have never seen WAFl, SANFL, VFL teams play against lower ranking AFL teams. I have seen Geelong's reserves play Port Melbourne in a highly competitive Grand Final last year, and I think that Geelong team would have given GWS more than a run for their money.

Why would the AFL bother? We are talking about expansion here aren't we, surely that is important to the AFL, if it wasn't we would still be watching the old VFL, and probably enjoying it just as much. Why don't the AFL just shut off the competition as it is now, and enjoy it for what it is then? if their KPIs are so great.

By the way Melbourne do not exactly sell out the MCG at the moment, I am sure West Coast vs Claremont at Patterson's stadium could potentially get close to as many fans as Essendon vs Melbourne at the MCG.

 

[cos789]

we have so many teams in Australia with a rich tradition, why do they not deserve to be in the AFL.

If you focus on the word "deserve" then you are right. All the teams in the state leagues deserve to be in the AFL. Historically they could have set up a national system with the state leagues. They still can.
But it is histrory that the AFL developed and the gap is too large to bridge now.
Not only did all the clubs in the WAFL, SANFL and VFL desrve to be in a national competition but also the QAFL and NSWFL. Of course the most deserving region is Tasmania, deserving a place in the AFL.
We have teams, rich in history like the East Sydney Bulldogs,one of the oldest teams around or other foundation members of the NSWFL. You might put in there the Western Suburbs magpies out of Sydney or the original Sydney team. Not forgetting Newcastle Black Diamond league that holds the longest surviving competition in Australian sport or the 113 clubs that once existed in New zealand and played under the banner of Australasian Football.

 

[cos789]

How would we even know how big the gulf is?

Because a lot of people pay a lot of other people to discern the difference.

Why would the AFL bother?

Exactly. Why would you want to promote Claremont?
Why is there a need to promote Claremont?

Why don't the AFL just shut off the competition as it is now.

Prey tell, what new teams are coming in to change the status quo?

I am sure West Coast vs Claremont at Patterson's stadium could potentially get close to as many fans as Essendon vs Melbourne at the MCG.

I like your optimism.

 

[StevenFutureAFL]

Because a lot of people pay a lot of other people to discern the difference.

I disagree with this, I don't think anyone knows. I mean look at the amount of draft picks Melbourne have wasted over the last few years, many factors go into making a strong club. It is not just a matter of talented young players plus sports science equals success. Teams like Claremont or Norwood could easily compete with teams like GWS, if they were given access to the draft, and even a small amount of financial support.

Exactly. Why would you want to promote Claremont?
Why is there a need to promote Claremont?

This is the interesting question, why... because a national competition with relegation/promotion gives all the teams something to strive for, and if teams go bad, like Melbourne, they have a place to regroup, and redevelop, rather than kill them off... like Fitzroy. Also without clubs the AFL do not have a competition, so it is in their interest for clubs to be successful. Having a strong national competition with the right structures in place, goes hand in hand with having strong leagues internationally. If the AFL respect the leagues below them, and give them the possibility to be promoted, even if it was to a Second division, then it is more likely they will give some respect to leagues internationally. Suddenly they may respect the NZL, Canadian or PNG leagues, and give them some support financially, and possibly they could get some avenue to promotion to the AFL division 2. That is all a little far fetched I know, but I would like to see it.

 

[cos789]

a national competition with relegation/promotion gives all the teams something to strive for

I quite agree with your efforts to promote state league clubs and I believe it isn't that difficult.
We have immense history and pride in Australian Football all across Australia as you allude to.
And now with the NEAFL with have reasonably balanced second tier competitions representing the whole of Australia. It is quite simple for these leagues to have a championship playoff series to find the premier Australian Football club. Thus providing greater recognition for second tier clubs. And yes, we could even create some interest by having a AFL wooden spooner Vs Australian premier club challenge.

 

[jatz14]

Thought I would do an update on NZ development. Taken from their website if you want more info.

Central Auckland Kiwikick, rolled out to over 50 schools and 15000 kids. After school participation in some cases over 10%. Over 100 teachers have been accredited through kiwikick. Participating schools get goal posts, footballs, training cones, coaching manuals etc. Community participation clubs being set up for AFL 9s and juniors. Big numbers because it is central Auckland, but it is being duplicated on a smaller scale in other regions.

Easily the best fledgling participation pathway set up anywhere outside of Australia.

The VAFA is sending an under 18 team next month to play a NZ under 18 team. VAFA will win easily, but I think that will only be the case for another 3 or 4 years before we start to see competitive games between them. Exciting for the future.

 

[cos789]

Thought I would do an update on NZ development. Taken from their website if you want more info.

Central Auckland Kiwikick, rolled out to over 50 schools and 15000 kids. After school participation in some cases over 10%. Over 100 teachers have been accredited through kiwikick. Participating schools get goal posts, footballs, training cones, coaching manuals etc. Community participation clubs being set up for AFL 9s and juniors. Big numbers because it is central Auckland, but it is being duplicated on a smaller scale in other regions.

Easily the best fledgling participation pathway set up anywhere outside of Australia.

The VAFA is sending an under 18 team next month to play a NZ under 18 team. VAFA will win easily, but I think that will only be the case for another 3 or 4 years before we start to see competitive games between them. Exciting for the future.

It certainly is good news with extremely large participation numbers achieved in a short period and in a very organised environment however as we might have discussed before, it'll take some time for the effects to flow onto community football. NZ is better suited than the RSA to take advantage of this participation in Australian Football with the infrastructure in sports and education and the proximity to the MCG. The NZ pathway to the AFL is well established. Hopefully it will become a full blown main road.

 

[Dan Cooper]

I think we can kiss the Irish experiment goodbye after the game overnight. Only 28,000 turned up to watch and Australia didn't turn up to play.

What a flogging.

 

[fabulousphil]

I think we can kiss the Irish experiment goodbye after the game overnight. Only 28,000 turned up to watch and Australia didn't turn up to play.

What a flogging.

Yes, did not bother taping it, but i reckon you could be wrong, it would not suprise if it is reinvigorated, the Irish want it, that much is obvious, the AFL want it for the extra money.

It is the Australian players that pout the kybosh on it, the AFL have yo find a way to enthuse them.

I reckon we will see it return, different time slot ( month) different format etc

 

[Dan Cooper]

Yes, did not bother taping it, but i reckon you could be wrong, it would not suprise if it is reinvigorated, the Irish want it, that much is obvious, the AFL want it for the extra money.

It is the Australian players that pout the kybosh on it, the AFL have yo find a way to enthuse them.

I reckon we will see it return, different time slot ( month) different format etc

The lack of interest in this match from Australia was almost total, and it wasn't just because of the result.

 

[fabulousphil]

The lack of interest in this match from Australia was almost total, and it wasn't just because of the result.

I agree, Australia ( the public) has lost interest, but my bet is, that is has more legs and we will see it continue in a different format, the series several years ago was great, the concept was working then.

Once the Australian players are behind it, then the public will as well.

 

[jatz14]

Not sure it does have legs. The round ball and the relatively low skill level most players have with it makes it feel too little like Aussie rules. Who wants to see Australia's most skillful players lose matches because they cannot reliable hit a free player.

 

[fabulousphil]

Not sure it does have legs. The round ball and the relatively low skill level most players have with it makes it feel too little like Aussie rules. Who wants to see Australia's most skillful players lose matches because they cannot reliable hit a free player.

Sort of agree with what you say, but from what i read of the recent 'talks' between the AFL and GAA, they will find a way for the game to continue.

I think it is relevant on a certain level, however like many Australian football fans, i agree the ball is a sticking point.

However in previous series, we seemed to use the ball much better than the recent ones.

 

[cos789]

I agree, Australia ( the public) has lost interest, but my bet is, that is has more legs and we will see it continue in a different format, the series several years ago was great, the concept was working then.

Once the Australian players are behind it, then the public will as well.

The public doesn't have the interest because the media don't mention IR much at all.
The media need an angle. Gone are the fights and national pride on the line.
Gone are the stars from the domestic competitions.
Instead we've inserted strategic and sterile approaches.
This approach needed the tests to be skilful and highly competitive and this year wasn't.

Will it the series be resurrected? There have been some good suggestions like moving the series to November which is better for all concerned all even allows for a possibe three test series. It allows the Aussies more time to practice with the round ball. In the tests I've watched the Aussies have generally improved throughout the game and the series.

Do I care? I enjoyed the earlier series. IMO unless both sides get back to the original idea of Ireland and Australia in a rigorous contest then energies would be better spent with alternatives.

 

[cos789]

It is the Australian players that pout the kybosh on it, the AFL have yo find a way to enthuse them.

I came across two Irish articles that said the Irish though still unpaid had lifted to a professional level.
That is one problem - for us. The Irish have improved.
How can the Aussies improve ?
We're already sending the best suit players - smaller, faster and more agile.
At a time when the Irish have stepped up we needed to send an improved side.
Yet we sent a team selected from a smaller cross-section of AFL players and more importantly
we sent sent a team with little experience.

IMO it requires a lot more than just simply enthusing Australian players that's a bit condescending
on the Irish input.

 

[Dan Cooper]

The public doesn't have the interest because the media don't mention IR much at all...

The media write and talk about what they think the public want to hear about. That's how they get ratings, and rightly or wrongly the media think the public don't want to hear about international rules games at the present time.

 

[cos789]

The media write and talk about what they think the public want to hear about.

Isn't that basically what I said? It's a catch 22 situation where popular sports remain popular because indeed they are popular. This series was a disaster yet it still attracted a crowd of 28k. That's bigger than a lot of other international football events. (Don't bother asking for links because it will be considered off topic or trolling).
The series was very popular here in Australia and especially Ireland. The question is can the countries reverse proceedings and also do the countries want to so. Why do we want the series even if it is entertaining, runs at a profit and it seen to mutually promote both countries? It has facilitated interaction between GAA clubs and AFCs around the globe but IMO that was just unintended spinoff. Has it promoted Australian Football as a fast attractive brand of football worth watching? IMO, no. I don't see the evidence. There seems to be more and more representive games {below elite) which is good but I see very little evidence these teams interacting with local sides especially in the sense of playing games. There just has to be more Australian Football. If it's not in the series then as an ajunct to the series.

What's an alternative? Take an AFL game to Ireland.
Immediately you'd have the media interest because it's AFL and anything AFL is newsworthy.
I would suggest the game would be well attended in Ireland.
Of course we have no way of telling how well attended but we can estimate by looking at previous exhibition games around the globe. IMO the Irish seem to be the most knowledgeble and most interested in our game so I would predict a very healthy game. If 28k showed up to see a predictably lame game of IR then who knows how many would turn up to watch the exciting game of Australian Football. We could highlight the theory that AFL came from GAA. That alone would tweek the Iriish interest.

 

[Dan Cooper]

Isn't that basically what I said? It's a catch 22 situation where popular sports remain popular because indeed they are popular. This series was a disaster yet it still attracted a crowd of 28k. That's bigger than a lot of other international football events...

We are by and large in agreement.

Previously crowds have been 60,000 so the 28,000 was a bad result.

I think the media coverage for this series pre and during has been less than previous tours because the media sensed a decline in public interest. But the reduced coverage of course only further decreases the public interest.

 

[cos789]

We are by and large in agreement.

Previously crowds have been 60,000 so the 28,000 was a bad result.

I think the media coverage for this series pre and during has been less than previous tours because the media sensed a decline in public interest. But the reduced coverage of course only further decreases the public interest.

Yep, each series relies on the "fat" of the previous series.
Heaven help the next series.
The decline in public interest is due in part to certain facts like the large time gap and changes in the direction of the IR game at elite level. 28k attendance is historically comparatively bad for sure but considering the predictable whitewash 28k is good and a base to turn things around. Obviously they have to work hard to get those 28k back and rebuild.

 

[Gigantor]

the gaelic-aussie rules hybrid experiment now extends 50 years back, that's its one saving grace, but otherwise, getting harder and harder to see the point of it

 

[sverik25]

What's an alternative? Take an AFL game to Ireland.
Immediately you'd have the media interest because it's AFL and anything AFL is newsworthy.
I would suggest the game would be well attended in Ireland.
Of course we have no way of telling how well attended but we can estimate by looking at previous exhibition games around the globe. IMO the Irish seem to be the most knowledgeble and most interested in our game so I would predict a very healthy game. If 28k showed up to see a predictably lame game of IR then who knows how many would turn up to watch the exciting game of Australian Football. We could highlight the theory that AFL came from GAA. That alone would tweek the Iriish interest.

The problem with that is it that there would probably be nothing to gain from the GAA's perspective and as well as that, I'm not sure how many oval grounds with suitable capacities there are in Ireland - cricket isn't popular so that could be a real problem.

 

[cos789]

The problem with that is it that there would probably be nothing to gain from the GAA's perspective.

And IMO the GAA are little fearful that AFL might compete in some way with GAA.
But if the series is going to survive, somebody has to suck it up.

I'm not sure how many oval grounds with suitable capacities there are in Ireland.

The AFL has played exhibition games in a lot of countries mostly not on cricket grounds.
The GAA pitch is significantly larger than a rugby/soccer/American Football pitch.
Exhibition games have also been held on baseball grounds and indoor arenas(with reduced numbers).
Where there is a will, there's usually a way.