The Vegan debate - a meating of the minds

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Mmmm, tofu. :) I'm a fan of Japanese food but my brother's family won't go near tofu even though the kids love their nori rolls and study Japanese at school.

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HARKER said:
I didn't 'like' your post because I like what you said or because you agree with me, but because I know it to be true.

It's unfortunate that humans have been conditioned to do many things they simply wouldn't do in the normal course of things.............so many things...............but the funniest part...........well, not really funny...........is that we then justify them just because it's what we're used to.

The day will come (should come, all things being equal) where the notion of eating another's flesh (yes, even those dirty, undeserving animals) will be abhorrent and uncivilized. It's.......................natural.
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I'm a meat eater with little chance of changing, but over the last few years I've certainly come to share the feeling that you have Harker. I could never kill an animal yet I'll happily smash a couple of burgers. Definitely feel like Vegetarianism and Veganism will grow and grow and meat eaters will be looked at undesirably.
 
Chalky Blues said:
Are we starting this one up again Gunslinger?
I can't tell from your post if you are Pro Meat or No Meat?
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As a good European if it moves we eat it and if it doesn't move we prod it until it moves then eat it. My forefathers were fishermen farmers winemakers and soldiers. We reaped what we sowed
 


I've put this video up elsewhere but the key points are worthy of discussion.
Let me know if one cares to view or if one doesn't, then why not? We humans tend to shun certain facts because they're likely to get in the way of our everyday lives. Change is difficult and we have enough responsibilities on our plate already. It's unfortunate.

Some people also find it amusing using lines like "If animals didn't want to be eaten, they shouldn't taste so good"
That may be funny to them but their certainly not the type of people I care to know. Either they can't think or choose not to think, which is even worse.

'Enjoy' the video.
 
HARKER said:


I've put this video up elsewhere but the key points are worthy of discussion.
Let me know if one cares to view or if one doesn't, then why not? We humans tend to shun certain facts because they're likely to get in the way of our everyday lives. Change is difficult and we have enough responsibilities on our plate already. It's unfortunate.

Some people also find it amusing using lines like "If animals didn't want to be eaten, they shouldn't taste so good"
That may be funny to them but their certainly not the type of people I care to know. Either they can't think or choose not to think, which is even worse.

'Enjoy' the video.
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Harks, surely you know the lines about the tasty animals is suppose to be in humor (and just looking for a cheap laugh) like 70-80% of the posts on BF that's why I & many others like logging in as much as we do.
Now for your video it is a huge eye opener and he brings up some massive issues/topics which most of us don't or don't wanna think about because we have been slowly brainwashed in our way of thinking since kids. I honestly haven't stopped thinking about the good points he brings up and have since spoken to my Mrs about it, as I have 2 kids under 3 yo and only want the best for them and what is gonna help me be around as long as possible for them. So the challenge is how far do you go? Are you now a vegan after watching this speech or have you just cut right back on what you eat??
 

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I'm a hypocrite as I had announced early through this discussion.
I haven't eaten red meat nor white meat (chicken etc) for some years now although I do eat seafood.
I choose to live under the mantra, "If I can't kill it, then I shouldn't eat it" which is in itself, a convenient motif to camouflage my hypocrisy.

We know why we eat what we do and it's largely because we've been trained to do so.
You'll see these patterns through various cultures who pick and choose as to what is right and what is wrong and the servants follow suit, because of religion, tradition or just purely habit etc.

We won't change our ways for a long time yet but I can see us doing so and to the point we'll be viewed as being a long-gone barbarian culture.
A culture that feasts on its own earthly inhabitants.

Try this: On Australia Day just watch people eating meat...................I mean really watch them and there may come a point where some realities kick in and your stomach starts to turn............well, it did for me at least.
 
HARKER said:
I'm a hypocrite as I had announced early through this discussion.
I haven't eaten red meat nor white meat (chicken etc) for some years now although I do eat seafood.
I choose to live under the mantra, "If I can't kill it, then I shouldn't eat it" which is in itself, a convenient motif to camouflage my hypocrisy.

We know why we eat what we do and it's largely because we've been trained to do so.
You'll see these patterns through various cultures who pick and choose as to what is right and what is wrong and the servants follow suit, because of religion, tradition or just purely habit etc.

We won't change our ways for a long time yet but I can see us doing so and to the point we'll be viewed as being a long-gone barbarian culture.
A culture that feasts on its own earthly inhabitants.

Try this: On Australia Day just watch people eating meat...................I mean really watch them and there may come a point where some realities kick in and your stomach starts to turn............well, it did for me at least.
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That's fair enough I know many people that don't eat different types of meat due to main different reasons but in the speech you posted he makes some great points on the herbivore v carnivore digestive systems which I had never thought about or been explained to before which opens up Pandora's box really. I suppose the only thing I keep thinking is if Vegans don't eat or use any animal based products at all, What would cows actually be used for?? Fair enough don't kill, eat or milk them but what would there be good for?
 
Chalky Blues said:
Harks, surely you know the lines about the tasty animals is suppose to be in humor (and just looking for a cheap laugh) like 70-80% of the posts on BF that's why I & many others like logging in as much as we do.
Now for your video it is a huge eye opener and he brings up some massive issues/topics which most of us don't or don't wanna think about because we have been slowly brainwashed in our way of thinking since kids. I honestly haven't stopped thinking about the good points he brings up and have since spoken to my Mrs about it, as I have 2 kids under 3 yo and only want the best for them and what is gonna help me be around as long as possible for them. So the challenge is how far do you go? Are you now a vegan after watching this speech or have you just cut right back on what you eat??
Click to expand...
Chalky, I have a friend who is a vegetarian and doesn't consume anything that 'has had a face' (her words) but isn't vegan...she may still head that way but hasn't gotten there yet. She has 3 children and isn't raising them as vegetarian and I did question her on this. She told me that she consulted a dietitian and a nutritionist (note that there are no regulations on nutritionists in Australia but dietitians are registered etc) and she was advised by both that her children needed meat at a young age for their brain development.

I'm not sure if the nutrients that they need at that age could be replaced by legumes, vegetables etc as I haven't done the research and our conversation didn't go that deeply, but if you are considering going vegetarian then a dietitian would be the best person to speak to.
 
Chalky Blues said:
That's fair enough I know many people that don't eat different types of meat due to main different reasons but in the speech you posted he makes some great points on the herbivore v carnivore digestive systems which I had never thought about or been explained to before which opens up Pandora's box really. I suppose the only thing I keep thinking is if Vegans don't eat or use any animal based products at all, What would cows actually be used for?? Fair enough don't kill, eat or milk them but what would there be good for?
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The physiological debate is one that may often go back to humans being omnivores and often for reasons of self-interest.
It's just not the debate I care so much about as to the moral debate.

How about this: Maybe the people that love their lamb so much should go and buy one. Put it into the backyard for a few days, put a knife to it when you're ready and make sure the barbie is fired up. We wouldn't do that..............we're not animals :)
That's for someone else to do whilst we suck on those juicy bones after we gorged on all the flesh and washed it down with a cold VB.

We can't help where we are but we can at least be honest and not pretend what we know to be wrong to be....................ever so right.
 
HARKER said:
The physiological debate is one that may often go back to humans being omnivores and often for reasons of self-interest.
It's just not the debate I care so much about as to the moral debate.

How about this: Maybe the people that love their lamb so much should go and buy one. Put it into the backyard for a few days, put a knife to it when you're ready and make sure the barbie is fired up. We wouldn't do that..............we're not animals :)
That's for someone else to do whilst we suck on those juicy bones after we gorged on all the flesh and washed it down with a cold VB.

We can't help where we are but we can at least be honest and not pretend what we know to be wrong to be....................ever so right.
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I guess like most moral issues they can be changed over time, but this would be the largest change in the past 500-1000 years or so and may take another 500-1000 years. Time will only tell I suppose, but if the big "C" is 100% linked to the eating of meat it will speed up the change for sure.
 
We are indeed fortunate to live in a country where food is abundant and allows us to make lifestyle choices.

I can't say I'm a person who craves meat but I certainly eat it most days of the week. I realise that meat is produced by farmers in the form of animals which are fattened up and then slaughtered. I'm not required to kill animals to eat and I'm glad I'll never have to slaughter an animal.

My grandfather was a butcher in the days when a butcher had to slaughter the animal and then prepare it for sale. My mum had the misfortune to be the eldest child and had to accompany him to the abattoir to help. She told me that this distressed her but it didn't prevent her from eating meat except for lamb. She was a big softie underneath when it came to baby animals.

Each to their own is my motto but as I said we are fortunate. Cambodians eat rats and insects not because of culture but because they had to survive. I'm sure dire circumstances could make us change our preferred eating options.
 
For lunch, I just finished another bowl of yummy stir-fried tofu. :)

I grew up in a meat-and-three-veg family. I eat meat but I do consider vegetarian options went available. And that's the point, do we need meat with every meal out of conditioning or whether it's a lack of imagination as far as meal preparation, where meat was seen as the centrepiece for uninspiring vegetables...

A vegan friend did convert me on the late night falafel - why sacrifice an animal to 2am intoxicated kebab indulgence when yummy vego options are available? ;)
 
My freezer is full of our own beef and lamb, or rather hoggett from a mate down the road...they live well, die well, and very little goes to waste.

Also have an annual salami day.

Respect and awareness are important to me, as is the culture and custom of food preparation and appreciation.

Oddly...I don't enjoy VB.

I don't feel the need to judge others dietary decisions anymore than their religious leanings.
 
Kramer1 said:
My freezer is full of our own beef and lamb, or rather hoggett from a mate down the road...they live well, die well, and very little goes to waste.
Also have an annual salami day.
Respect and awareness are important to me, as is the culture and custom of food preparation and appreciation.
Oddly...I don't enjoy VB.
I don't feel the need to judge others dietary decisions anymore than their religious leanings.
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But you do judge on what you state as 'an animal living well and dying well'................You see you do judge but you just don't know it.

Ask the lamb being put to slaughter for your feasting benefit, whether it thinks it has lived well...........What do you think the answer may be should it be capable of replying........You know don't you, but let's just pretend otherwise? It's so much more 'convenient' that way.:)
 
Please don't preach Harks or presume to tell me what I do and don't understand. It limits the conversation greatly.

Further...you don't have much of a pulpit given your self confessed hypocricy. I have a very keen interest in where my food comes from and how it got to my plate. And this extends beyond meat.

I'm not pretending to believe anything about the young sheep or cows we slaughter...I don't kill them senselessly and I don't do it without some reflection on the life taken...I don't pretend I'm killing them for any reason other than the appetite my family has for good lamb/mutton and beef.

Sheep are livestock, so yes, in comparison to the very vast majority, the animals we slaughter live and die well. A higher quality of life, a higher level of animal husbandry. It's not a comfort, it's a fact.

You drink milk?
 
No. Haven't drunk milk for decades. Trick question?

Whichever way you sell your 'beliefs' they're very much from your perspective and not the other beings perspective.
That's how we rationalize the things we do and not just on this debate but for many others.

Sorry Kramer but your justification doesn't stack up as your saying, "I don't kill animals senselessly because I let others do it for me"
It's funny that once we put something under a banner of 'livestock' that somehow makes it all honky-dory (thanks Bowie)

Anyway, we can justify the slaughter of animals for our digestive gratification.
I'm just suggesting that when we grow up, that notion may just be abhorrent. That's what I see and I may be wrong.
 
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