The Vegan debate - a meating of the minds

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No trick question Harks...just gauging the depths of your hypocricy.

I'm not selling beliefs but I try to live them. We have a mobile butcher in so the killing is done on-site by us. The pig we get in annually comes from an abby which is less than ideal...but I love smallgoods more than this upsets me. I rarely eat chicken but when I do it bothers me more.

I kill rabbits...I kill foxes...i've killed three snakes this summer, just this week I killed likely millions of ants because they had the temerity to nest near the shed...and I'm just a hobby farmer...if you eat you are contributing to the death of a great many beings large and small...its the way its been as long as we have been an agrarian society...and we will certainly be so beyond my tiny sliver of time on the planet.

Figure the best I can do is be informed about what I eat and try to make good decisions.
 
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Kramer1 said:
Figure the best I can do is be informed about what I eat and try to make good decisions.
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Very much so for now and this will (should) develop leading into a natural progression where we can no longer trick ourselves into 'believing' that slaughtering and consuming others' flesh is justified. It won't happen any time soon but talk to intelligent young people today and you can see that the swing towards being vegan is much stronger now than it was a generation ago....and of course subsequent generations will be so much better informed, again.

I can see a day where we won't need/choose to consume animals but industry won't want to let go so easily.
They'll fight tooth and nail for their cash-cows (pun intended).........as they generally do. Wish I'd be around to see that day.
 

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Not sure if the fads of youth are great portents of the future...

I'd argue the push to be more food aware has far greater potential societal benefits than growth in veganism...or any other cult for that matter.
 
Does anyone know the ratio of vegans in Aus?

My relatives are farmers, a couple of my uncles work in abattoirs. I've seen pretty much all there is to see there. I still eat meat and to be honest I don't think twice about doing it. I'm lucky (for so many reasons) in that I am a human that can think and make decisions for myself.

I see all this much like religion. I don't care if you're vegan. All power to you. But then by the same token, I don't expect to receive a lecture about my choices - especially as I've seen more than your average crusader.

This obviously isn't directed at anyone in here, just my general thoughts on the matter.
 
Robbo's my hero said:
We are indeed fortunate to live in a country where food is abundant and allows us to make lifestyle choices.

I can't say I'm a person who craves meat but I certainly eat it most days of the week. I realise that meat is produced by farmers in the form of animals which are fattened up and then slaughtered. I'm not required to kill animals to eat and I'm glad I'll never have to slaughter an animal.

My grandfather was a butcher in the days when a butcher had to slaughter the animal and then prepare it for sale. My mum had the misfortune to be the eldest child and had to accompany him to the abattoir to help. She told me that this distressed her but it didn't prevent her from eating meat except for lamb. She was a big softie underneath when it came to baby animals.

Each to their own is my motto but as I said we are fortunate. Cambodians eat rats and insects not because of culture but because they had to survive. I'm sure dire circumstances could make us change our preferred eating options.
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I will never eat Krispy creme
 
Jatz said:
Does anyone know the ratio of vegans in Aus?

My relatives are farmers, a couple of my uncles work in abattoirs. I've seen pretty much all there is to see there. I still eat meat and to be honest I don't think twice about doing it. I'm lucky (for so many reasons) in that I am a human that can think and make decisions for myself.

I see all this much like religion. I don't care if you're vegan. All power to you. But then by the same token, I don't expect to receive a lecture about my choices - especially as I've seen more than your average crusader.

This obviously isn't directed at anyone in here, just my general thoughts on the matter.
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Yep, bang, same.
 
I have a second cousin who is vegan, she is 25 and has been vegetarian or vegan all her life. Being a vegan is not cheap and is very time consuming making sure you get the proper nutrients and vitamins etc. It is not as easy as eating a baked potato. Also have a couple of friends who are vegos but do have dairy and some fish in their diet. I went vego for a few months in my 30s and didn't mind it and I can go without meat for long periods if need be.
 
Selene9 said:
Well humans are also animals so maybe we should be cannibals...
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But we can think better than animals can......and we're so much superior......and they deserve to be eaten because they're yummy......and we're so nice to them when we slaughter them and take them away from their children......think about it; How would your children feel, having their mum taken away from them and used as fodder for a superior race.......Oh hang on......we're human.......and we're superior and.......

Bunch of hypocrites the lot if us.
 

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HARKER said:
I didn't 'like' your post because I like what you said or because you agree with me, but because I know it to be true.

It's unfortunate that humans have been conditioned to do many things they simply wouldn't do in the normal course of things.............so many things...............but the funniest part...........well, not really funny...........is that we then justify them just because it's what we're used to.

The day will come (should come, all things being equal) where the notion of eating another's flesh (yes, even those dirty, undeserving animals) will be abhorrent and uncivilized. It's.......................natural.
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Yes so insightful Harker-meat eating will be thought of in the same way we view slavery now.
 
Selene9 said:
Yes so insightful Harker-meat eating will be thought of in the same way we view slavery now.
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Obviously. We can not possibly consider ourselves a humane society until such a time as we share empathy for all sentient beings.

Can't work any other way. We can lie of course and we're good at lying, but it's clear as day to me.
 
Interesting bump. I did a uni subject that looked at a whole lot of this, essentially my thinking can be summed up as:

Reasons to go vegetarian:
- The meat industry is incredibly cruel to animals; this is an inevitable consequence of treating meat as a commodity
- Eating meat is far less healthy than eating veggies (mainly because all the really tasty, evil foods contain meat products; not that there aren't healthy meat products or unhealthy vegan ones)
- Eating veggies is cheaper (compare the price of lamb to that of veggies)
- Eating veggies is better for the environment, helps prevent climate change, etc
- Eating veggies (even occasionally) helps improve your cooking techniques, and you come to learn heaps of meals where meat is just unnecessary and the vegetarian alternatives are just as good, if not better (eg: lasagne/pasta, burgers, etc)

Reasons to eat meat:
- It's really, really, really tasty. Seriously - all my favourite things are meat
- Umm... ??????????

So I weighed up the pros and cons... and I continue to eat meat. However, I did start a tradition of meat-free March, which I continue; its actually pretty cool. I save money, learn some new recipes, get a bit healthier, and then eat a massive rack of ribs on April 1! Oh, and I now have a stack of cooking htat I do where I just leave out meat and use a better, healthier, cheaper alternative, which is nice too...
 
I just think we are arguing along the wrong lines...the soybean industry is responsible for rampant deforestation, almonds are hugely water inefficient crops, grown in enormous mono-cultures that now need to import bees to pollenate their crops, as they've killed the native colonies, and who knows what else, with pesticides.

Not sure what any of us eat is a problem in isolation...where it was grown, how it was grown, how it was harvested or killed, how it's packaged, how far it travelled, how much is wasted...who's profiting...surely these are the bigger questions.
 
bluebrew said:
Meat by products are used to make fertilizers, There are no Vegans.
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You may be missing the point as to why people choose to become vegan/vegetarian etc.
You can trip them over with an "Aha. The soil contains animal products in it" but the objectives for becoming vegan take more into account than to simply abstain from any minuscule intake of animal product.

Here's a start point and read the RED at least:

Anyone who is opposed to injustice in the world, should pause and think about the fact that we breed and kill billions of animals on an annual basis, just so that we can eat them. People who passionately believe that the world would be a much better place if we all learned to look past our differences and embrace the common ties that bind us will eventually have to confront the injustice we inflict on animals for our pleasure, convenience and entertainment.
If you oppose racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination based on class, sexual orientation, physical appearances or abilities, then veganism can be looked upon as a natural extension of the belief in equality. This doesn’t mean that humans and animals are the same in every way and animals need to enjoy the same rights as human beings. What this means is recognizing that animals do not exist solely for us to use them as a means to an end.
 
HARKER said:
You may be missing the point as to why people choose to become vegan/vegetarian etc.
You can trip them over with an "Aha. The soil contains animal products in it" but the objectives for becoming vegan take more into account than to simply abstain from any minuscule intake of animal product.

Here's a start point and read the RED at least:

Anyone who is opposed to injustice in the world, should pause and think about the fact that we breed and kill billions of animals on an annual basis, just so that we can eat them. People who passionately believe that the world would be a much better place if we all learned to look past our differences and embrace the common ties that bind us will eventually have to confront the injustice we inflict on animals for our pleasure, convenience and entertainment.
If you oppose racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination based on class, sexual orientation, physical appearances or abilities, then veganism can be looked upon as a natural extension of the belief in equality. This doesn’t mean that humans and animals are the same in every way and animals need to enjoy the same rights as human beings. What this means is recognizing that animals do not exist solely for us to use them as a means to an end.
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So having read all, you are enamoured with words sad reality is equality does not exist in Law or Nature, much like the words spoken only actions achieve and the man who can buy the best be it fastest smartest quickest whatever always wins.
 
bluebrew said:
So having read all, you are enamoured with words sad reality is equality does not exist in Law or Nature, much like the words spoken only actions achieve and the man who can buy the best be it fastest smartest quickest whatever always wins.
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But it can be achieved.
We think that what we are today, we will always be. That's a terrible idea.

Maybe we'll get better or maybe we'll get worse but in the meantime any thinking human will understand, that slaughtering and consuming another being, simply isnt just and certainly not just for the being getting slaughtered.

We may not care to admit it but when we think.....
 
HARKER said:
But it can be achieved.
We think that what we are today, we will always be. That's a terrible idea.

Maybe we'll get better or maybe we'll get worse but in the meantime any thinking human will understand, that slaughtering and consuming another being, simply isnt just and certainly not just for the being getting slaughtered.

We may not care to admit it but when we think.....
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It cannot exist , its a dream a fictional utopia those fixated with the vision fall for, Some will always work harder than others and as a result will be rewarded better. Whether it is because they have tertiary education or just a blessed with Ability in combination with desire to achieve.. you cannot reasonably penalise them for those who aren't and will not.
 
bluebrew said:
It cannot exist , its a dream a fictional utopia those fixated with the vision fall for, Some will always work harder than others and as a result will be rewarded better. Whether it is because they have tertiary education or just a blessed with Ability in combination with desire to achieve.. you cannot reasonably penalise them for those who aren't and will not.
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Of course that may be right, but I see other possibilities and if you draw a line through us, even in the past 50 years, you'll see that as much as we've gone backwards in some aspects of life, progressive people are looking for new and better ways to not just survive, but to live (what we do, what we don't do), and in the context of what we eat; We cannot truly call ourselves just, when we 'persecute' beings that are below our level.

Small steps but look back at our treatment of animals, even in the past 20 years and extend it out to its logical conclusion. Never say never.
 
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