There are people who would use the same rationale as yours to explain why only snobs don't like white zinfandel or yellowtail
Its the difference between knowing what you like and knowing about what you like.
They are 2 separate conversations.
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There are people who would use the same rationale as yours to explain why only snobs don't like white zinfandel or yellowtail
Its the difference between knowing what you like and knowing about what you like.
They are 2 separate conversations.
cartel
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I just like wine that tastes good to me.
To be honest I am not sure how much you know about HV semillons from what you are posting. You're saying that they involve a lot of intervention and don't reflect terroir - not true, labels like McWilliams Mount Pleasant are made with minimal intervention and are noted for their regional and sub-regional characteristics. You're saying they have low acidity - again, not true, similar to reisling they have a great deal of acidity at maturity. You're saying they're often oaked to add flavour - the best HV semillons are unoaked. You're saying they're a neutral variety - again, not true, the better low-intervention HV semillons are noted for their delicate flavour profiles.
It really seems like you are either drawing your conclusions from very young wines, or parroting preconceived ideas.
It really seems like you are either drawing your conclusions from very young wines, or parroting preconceived ideas.
By all means tell me what you think minimal intervention is, and how the vinification differs from my description.
Its probably time to park the high level generalities
I'm not sure you understood what I am saying about the physiology of the grape, and the presence of natural acidity.
I presented you facts not opinion. Semillon is a low acid grape, that is as true as it is a white variety
Again your response seems to be confused. what I am saying is the basic physiology of the grape, it is not opinion.
You also don't seem to appreciate the difference between natural fruit flavours and flavours from wine making.
Am happy to have a sensible conversation, provided you are prepared to engage in specifics and less waffle
Here's something you might like, and I suspect you'd benefit greatly from:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1845334981
What the blurbs don't tell you is that Michael Schuster teaches wine tasting for the institute of masters of wine, and private courses of aspiring mw's
I recommend it heartedly
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1845334981
What the blurbs don't tell you is that Michael Schuster teaches wine tasting for the institute of masters of wine, and private courses of aspiring mw's
I recommend it heartedly
What, like this?
You realise that none of the best HV semillons use oak or malolactic fermentation?
They also don't use 'artificial yeast' (whatever that is). Most of them use inoculated yeasts, if that's what you mean. But then so do many of the most highly regarded wineries around the world - including many top Burgundy producers. This obsession with wild yeast is one of the more recent fads. Nonetheless if it's a dealbreaker there are a number of Hunter Valley producers who make their semillons with wild yeast - Gundog for example.
You realise that due to the methods of preparation, semillon is regarded as the best white representative of terroir in the HV - not chardonnay? There are substantial differences in the local characteristics of semillon grown in Lovedale compared to that in say, Broke Fordwich.
Can you see why I wonder whether you are just parroting preconceived notions, rather than speaking from actual knowledge of the region's wines?
The guy knows his stuff but he's a ridiculously pretentious eurosnob. Can think of a dozen writers whose books are less in love with their own opinion and more informative.
My this is tiring and tedious
"None of the best" - thats like saying none of the good mcdonalds make big macs a certain way
"Most of them" - good to see specifics
"What are artificial yeasts"
Thats all just waffle without meaning
As you've failed to discuss what in your (very limited) experience is minimal intervention, i'll help with what its not
- yeast inoculation (what is artificial yeast??? FFS non natural)
- enzymes
- cold stabilisation
- temperature controlled ferments
- excess sulphur
- fining & filtration
Maybe its all relative
Really? Who told you that?
I'd be interested in hearing what "top burgundy" producers you think don't use natural yeasts? And for which specific wines?
Which of the most highly regarded wineries in the world?
you don't sound like you have much experience beyond mid range australian wines; so these claims are surprising (and wrong)
natural yeast fermentation has been around for centuries. Literally.
Deal breaker for what?
You should research natural wines, try natural selection theory wines - you might learn something about what real minimal intervention wine making is.
Anton von klopper & james erskine for example
Regarded by who? The same people who think it makes a quality varietal wine? In contrast to the views of the entire world?
Maybe semillon has properties in HV that it doesn't have in other parts of australia & the world?
Dunno
By pre-conceived, you mean different. As in everyone who doesn't think these irrelevant cold fermented dry white wines are important is a euro snob with blinkered bias?
Or just experienced and knowledgable palates?
Like you have the first idea who he is
"None of the best" - thats like saying none of the good mcdonalds make big macs a certain way
"Most of them" - good to see specifics
"What are artificial yeasts"
Thats all just waffle without meaning
As you've failed to discuss what in your (very limited) experience is minimal intervention, i'll help with what its not
- yeast inoculation (what is artificial yeast??? FFS non natural)
- enzymes
- cold stabilisation
- temperature controlled ferments
- excess sulphur
- fining & filtration
Maybe its all relative
Really? Who told you that?
I'd be interested in hearing what "top burgundy" producers you think don't use natural yeasts? And for which specific wines?
Which of the most highly regarded wineries in the world?
you don't sound like you have much experience beyond mid range australian wines; so these claims are surprising (and wrong)
natural yeast fermentation has been around for centuries. Literally.
Deal breaker for what?
You should research natural wines, try natural selection theory wines - you might learn something about what real minimal intervention wine making is.
Anton von klopper & james erskine for example
Regarded by who? The same people who think it makes a quality varietal wine? In contrast to the views of the entire world?
Maybe semillon has properties in HV that it doesn't have in other parts of australia & the world?
Dunno
By pre-conceived, you mean different. As in everyone who doesn't think these irrelevant cold fermented dry white wines are important is a euro snob with blinkered bias?
Or just experienced and knowledgable palates?
Like you have the first idea who he is
What are you on about? Pick up any list of the best semillons in the HV. None of them are oaked. None of them have malolactic fermentation. Several of them use wild rather than inoculated yeasts. Basically, you have made a bunch of generalist pronouncements about how you think semillon is made in the HV and are completely wrong.
There is no such thing as a non-natural (or artificial) yeast. It's just a newly-coined snob term to describe cultured yeasts.
As for top producers using interventionist techniques, it's widely known. Given that it is such a faux pas amongst wine snobs such as yourself, I am not surprised that individual producers don't advertise it.
EDIT: http://www.enologyinternational.com/yeast/wildyeast.html
Don't you see how utterly ridiculous this is? A handful of highly influential wine critics start a relatively recent craze about traditional methods, and people like you latch onto it and proclaim it to be the be-all and end-all of good winemaking as a way to look down your nose.
Seriously, it's people like you who give liking wine a bad name.
Macca19
Moderator
- Moderator
- #262
Why does it matter that the rest of the world doesnt make straight Semillon? In the Hunter particularly, it makes a fantastic varietal wine because the climate lends itself to making fantastic Semillon. This should be promoted, not negated.
Correct. The conditions int he Hunter leads to significantly higher acidity in Semillon than you get anywhere else that its grown in the world.
cartel
Premiership Player
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Wynns red stripe. T Bone. Sweet potato chips. Oh delicious.
This week:
Dinner sat night
Felluga Pinot Grigio (friuli) 2011
Lovely neutral mid weight wine, hints of pink grapefruit, lovely vinous sapid mouthfeel, a slight orange hue from extended skin contact adding texture, phenolic weight and a touch of peach skin. With extended airing bottle starts to show slightly weightier gris like notes. One of the, maybe the reference standard for PG.
Lafon Volnay Santenots du Millieu 2002
Served blind. Spicy, energetic tannins, over developing silky fruit, perfumed,more red than dark fruit. very long, very intense core of gamey fruit. very stylish but firm, long life ahead. Mineral inflected. Guessed cote rotie 2001
Champy beaune 1er cru aux cras 2002
Muscular, traditional burgundy, dark & brooding. Game fur, and lovely underlying fruit quality, dark velvety tannin; sits low in mouth, not aromatic. could be nuit st george, but not enough iron soil inflections; Gevrey? 1999?
Dinner thursday
Amongst others Tokay Pinot Gris 1988 VT weinbach 1988
A little ungenerous, dried banana and paw paw; but angular. Lots of concentration but fruit drying out. Not enough botrytis
Grand Puy Lacoste 1970
snappy acidity, dried hard herbs, earth & faded black current fruit. Not quite right. Lacks complexity
Lamarche La Grand Rue, Vosne Romanee grand cru 1959
Wine of the night. Exotic and spicy; silky and sweet fruit; tannins fully resolved, with spine of still clean acidity. balance of structure with underlying material not quite in harmony, but quality of fruit delicious. Has another 20 years; genuinely complex
Debortoli noble one 1982
A genuinely fine australian wine, first vintage. Masses of botrytised fruit, but sweetness starting to dry. Seville orange & geranium. Still plenty of glycerin and luscious fruit, to balance high natural acidity. feels a bit heavy after a while.
Chateau de la tour clos vougeot 1917
not a great year, but still healthy out of half bottle. dusty fragrance of wine, hints of mustard seed and madeirised blood orange. Mid palate a bit richer and heavy that would be expected - wonder what they added back then to fill it out. Has almost spirity note - more barolet styled brandy addition?
Croft Vintage Port 1945
tannic, notes of tea and earth. Still lively and rich, with mid palate concentration, but not the texture of the finest examples.
Dinner sunday night
Hitzberger axpoint smargd Gruner Veltliner 2007
Exotic spicy, very round and rich for an aromatic style. Could use a decant. Floral, with paw paw and black pepper. Sweetish
Trimbach Frederic Emile Riesling 1989
Starting to fade with hints of petrol, austere but hovers gently in the mouth. Long buttery, mineral notes on finish. Energy and minerality still drive this wine. Drink up though
Hanzell sonoma pinot noir 1981
Walter hanzell made some of the long lived wines in california back in the 1970's. this is hanging out, with a leafy cab franc black current note in the background. Lacks the acidic spine and length of burgundy, but sits lower and softer in the mouth. Faded black cherry leads to a slighty washed out finish. Lacks grip on back.
Siduri Gary's vineyard pinot Santa Rita Hills 2006
Restrained stemmy, plummy fruit. Focused with crisp acidity, and elegant tannins. Has a sense of whole bunch ferment to the fruit, with sweet spice, current and cola in background. Serious and impressive wine, complex aromatics. Very good
And frankly the bloke who brought this might not be invited next time
Torbreck 2009 The Bothie
Peculiar nose of lavender, leading to talcum and orange blossom water; tastes medicinal, literally like odd perfume. Like granny's apothecary.
WTF bordering on undrinkable.
Dinner sat night
Felluga Pinot Grigio (friuli) 2011
Lovely neutral mid weight wine, hints of pink grapefruit, lovely vinous sapid mouthfeel, a slight orange hue from extended skin contact adding texture, phenolic weight and a touch of peach skin. With extended airing bottle starts to show slightly weightier gris like notes. One of the, maybe the reference standard for PG.
Lafon Volnay Santenots du Millieu 2002
Served blind. Spicy, energetic tannins, over developing silky fruit, perfumed,more red than dark fruit. very long, very intense core of gamey fruit. very stylish but firm, long life ahead. Mineral inflected. Guessed cote rotie 2001
Champy beaune 1er cru aux cras 2002
Muscular, traditional burgundy, dark & brooding. Game fur, and lovely underlying fruit quality, dark velvety tannin; sits low in mouth, not aromatic. could be nuit st george, but not enough iron soil inflections; Gevrey? 1999?
Dinner thursday
Amongst others Tokay Pinot Gris 1988 VT weinbach 1988
A little ungenerous, dried banana and paw paw; but angular. Lots of concentration but fruit drying out. Not enough botrytis
Grand Puy Lacoste 1970
snappy acidity, dried hard herbs, earth & faded black current fruit. Not quite right. Lacks complexity
Lamarche La Grand Rue, Vosne Romanee grand cru 1959
Wine of the night. Exotic and spicy; silky and sweet fruit; tannins fully resolved, with spine of still clean acidity. balance of structure with underlying material not quite in harmony, but quality of fruit delicious. Has another 20 years; genuinely complex
Debortoli noble one 1982
A genuinely fine australian wine, first vintage. Masses of botrytised fruit, but sweetness starting to dry. Seville orange & geranium. Still plenty of glycerin and luscious fruit, to balance high natural acidity. feels a bit heavy after a while.
Chateau de la tour clos vougeot 1917
not a great year, but still healthy out of half bottle. dusty fragrance of wine, hints of mustard seed and madeirised blood orange. Mid palate a bit richer and heavy that would be expected - wonder what they added back then to fill it out. Has almost spirity note - more barolet styled brandy addition?
Croft Vintage Port 1945
tannic, notes of tea and earth. Still lively and rich, with mid palate concentration, but not the texture of the finest examples.
Dinner sunday night
Hitzberger axpoint smargd Gruner Veltliner 2007
Exotic spicy, very round and rich for an aromatic style. Could use a decant. Floral, with paw paw and black pepper. Sweetish
Trimbach Frederic Emile Riesling 1989
Starting to fade with hints of petrol, austere but hovers gently in the mouth. Long buttery, mineral notes on finish. Energy and minerality still drive this wine. Drink up though
Hanzell sonoma pinot noir 1981
Walter hanzell made some of the long lived wines in california back in the 1970's. this is hanging out, with a leafy cab franc black current note in the background. Lacks the acidic spine and length of burgundy, but sits lower and softer in the mouth. Faded black cherry leads to a slighty washed out finish. Lacks grip on back.
Siduri Gary's vineyard pinot Santa Rita Hills 2006
Restrained stemmy, plummy fruit. Focused with crisp acidity, and elegant tannins. Has a sense of whole bunch ferment to the fruit, with sweet spice, current and cola in background. Serious and impressive wine, complex aromatics. Very good
And frankly the bloke who brought this might not be invited next time
Torbreck 2009 The Bothie
Peculiar nose of lavender, leading to talcum and orange blossom water; tastes medicinal, literally like odd perfume. Like granny's apothecary.
WTF bordering on undrinkable.
Oh and last night also:
Chandon de briailles Corton Clos du Roi 2009
Fiercely tannic, with deep set, full bodied fruit. Not aromatic, more reserved sitting low in mouth, impressive core of intense black & blue fruit, ripe but not giving. Quite stemmy & unyielding. Will last 30-40 years.
Chandon de briailles Corton Clos du Roi 2009
Fiercely tannic, with deep set, full bodied fruit. Not aromatic, more reserved sitting low in mouth, impressive core of intense black & blue fruit, ripe but not giving. Quite stemmy & unyielding. Will last 30-40 years.
Macca19
Moderator
- Moderator
- #267
And frankly the bloke who brought this might not be invited next time
Torbreck 2009 The Bothie
Peculiar nose of lavender, leading to talcum and orange blossom water; tastes medicinal, literally like odd perfume. Like granny's apothecary.
WTF bordering on undrinkable.
Thats Torbreck. Cant stand his wines.
Actually I'd be interested in what issues you have - I can probably guess - but he does bring in some of the very best quality fruit anywhere in the country.
What don't you like? Is it a quality issue or preference issue
You got something to back that up?
back up what?
Your "everybody knows" assertions or should i back up your "they do it, but lie about advertising what they do" assertion?
Not exactly the detailed name names you were asked for (again).
Not interested any further, don't bother
Not my assertion. I've given you a link to an article by a reputable expert. Can give you a bunch of others if you like, that was just the first one to pop up on Google.
What have you got to refute it? Other than your own assertion that it's wrong?
What have you got to refute it? Other than your own assertion that it's wrong?
Not sure individuality is what anyone gets in the barossa.
Not sure anyone is putting better fruit into bottle, but it is expensive. The laird is just the fruit from the old malcolm vineyard, but at 7-8x the price.
Many australians, particularly those with limited experience outside their backyard, struggle with the funk - he's a low intervention guy and if you like squeaky clean fruit these are not for you; myself I find the fruit just too sweet. Its all polished oak, fine tannin, and nothing savoury to pull it together
Its not pleasant to drink and I'm bored after half a glass.
Though the reason he commands high prices, and has wide critical acclaim around the world is that the quality is there. particularly in places like America where sweetness AND intensity of fruit is more prized, and people sometimes taste more than they drink.
The other reason i was so pissed with the bloke who brought the bothie was not that it was s**t, but that it was cheap. its low ambition supermarket wine, that never promised to be very good.
Its one thing for a bottle to not deliver, but if its only of modest ambition then you only have yourself to blame.
