Theoretically could Australia have a fresh water inland sea?

[clogged]

There is a video linked earlier about an aussie who is turning arid land in Jordan into fertile land, his projects aren't on a massive scale but what he has been doing can be done on a larger scale.

I think it would take decades or even centures only because nobody is going to do it to the entire country at the same time. But his results were pretty impressive over a short period of time.

While Jordan is dry it isn't infertile. The arid parts of Australia have some of the least fertile soils in the world. It is to do with the age of the soils as opposed to the amount of water available.

 

[Tas]

While Jordan is dry it isn't infertile. The arid parts of Australia have some of the least fertile soils in the world. It is to do with the age of the soils as opposed to the amount of water available.

Age just refers to the extent the soil has been exposed to weathering, even in arid areas there is usually unweathered soil underneath the weathered soil, the lack of rainfall has prevented the erosion of the weathered soil.

Rainfall is not only important because it is required for plant life to grow, it also filters the soil, arid soil has high concentration of chemicals which are toxic to most plants, over a long period of time the top soil becomes very hard and what little rain falls runs off or evaporates.

it causes the temperature of the land to rise, it kills off a lot of the life within the soil such as the bacteria, bugs and worms which are important for fertile soil.

It would be considerably harder to convert desert into fertile land but plant life thrives around oasis in the desert.

Only about a third of our country is fertile and that are the regions of the country that were glaciated in the past and had significant erosion, the rest of the country was not glaciated so has a lot of older weathered soil covering the younger layers of soil. This has resulted in the topsoil in the now arid regions of the country to be extremely deficient in phosphorus, potassium and nitrogen and have widespread deficiencies in minor elements.

But, you can put what is missing back into the soil through mulching and fertilisers. We can collect more than enough dead or dying plant matter which is usually burnt off or is the cause of bushfires and we can use human waste which is just pumped out to sea to create the environment where the bugs and bacteria will live in the soil, has the nutrients to grow plants and allow rainfall to be absorbed by the soil and not evaporate and allow the temperature to cool slightly.

We are currently doing the opposite, we are turning our fertile land into arid land through poor farming techniques.

 

[clogged]

Tas, it is not like the arid parts of Australia receive no rain at all. Very little of the country receives less than 200mm of rainfall per year. Compare that to the Sahara where almost all of it receives less than 100mm per year.

The problem with Australia's geography is that evaporation is a massive problem and the soils are so old (because there have been no geological processes of renewal for hundreds of millions of years) that they have low fertility.

Look at this map:

Quite a lot of Australia is wetter than Jordan and much of the Middle East, which averages less than 300mm per year.

 

[Chameleon75]

Tas, it is not like the arid parts of Australia receive no rain at all. Very little of the country receives less than 200mm of rainfall per year. Compare that to the Sahara where almost all of it receives less than 100mm per year.

The problem with Australia's geography is that evaporation is a massive problem and the soils are so old (because there have been no geological processes of renewal for hundreds of millions of years) that they have low fertility.

Look at this map:

Quite a lot of Australia is wetter than Jordan and much of the Middle East, which averages less than 300mm per year.

evaporation is one half of the equation the other halve is the permability of the soil and rock beneath.

 

[clogged]

evaporation is one half of the equation the other halve is the permability of the soil and rock beneath.

Or the fact that there is often no soil to speak of at all.

I'd like to see a permaculture project in a few parts of Australia, with a view to maybe growing forests and replenishing the nutrient base of the soils. But I don't think it would be easy or quick. Would have to be a multi decade project with the expectation that it has a high probability of failure.

 

[Bender571]

If you're wanting to terraform the desert keep an eye on China over the next few years. Desertification is a huge problem for them and they've got a few ideas they're trialling.

Cloud seeding to increase rainfall, spraying the desert with bacteria to stabilise soil and promote top soil, they're looking at bringing sea water inland, and even just planting millions of trees

 

[The_Reaper]

If you're wanting to terraform the desert keep an eye on China over the next few years. Desertification is a huge problem for them and they've got a few ideas they're trialling.

Cloud seeding to increase rainfall, spraying the desert with bacteria to stabilise soil and promote top soil, they're looking at bringing sea water inland, and even just planting millions of trees

Well they still have the cheap labour force to do it.

 

[clogged]

Communist countries have long been successful at terraforming - look at the Aral Sea.

 

[blackcat]

Communist countries have long been successful at terraforming - look at the Aral Sea.

dykes n the lowlands?

 

[raskolnikov]

dykes n the lowlands?

You hear about the boy who stuck his finger in a dyke?

She beat the s**t out of him.

Anyway the solution to over population of capital cities would be to send people up North where there is ample rainfall.

 

[evo]

Tas, it is not like the arid parts of Australia receive no rain at all. Very little of the country receives less than 200mm of rainfall per year. Compare that to the Sahara where almost all of it receives less than 100mm per year.


Quite a lot of Australia is wetter than Jordan and much of the Middle East, which averages less than 300mm per year.

all the more reason why we could create a lot more arable land. There are hundereds of different plants that regenerate the soil.

 

[Cap]

Side ways question. But if you are going to go to all the effort to trap water, wouldn't you just send it down the Murray catchment?

I mean many town have excess capacity due to recent droughts and water Licence buy backs.

By capacity I mean infrastructure and connections to capital cities.

It would be vastly simpler to re start industries along that corridor.

If you were then still keen on terra forming, SA has vast tracks on borderline land which could be then irrigated for both agricultural and terra forming purposes.

 

[RobbieGray17]

I'm pretty sure china is aiming to do something like this by 2070 or something.

http://www.futuretimeline.net/21stcentury/2050-2059.htm

 

[RobbieGray17]

If you created a pipeline from the Kimberleys area you could keep an inland lake full. I remember seeing something on a show regarding how much water goes to waste up that way and that if it were piped to specific dry areas it could be used to open up inland irrigated farming lands such is the volume of water.

The issue would be a lot of the area you've got as an inland lake is already salt flats.

Would the cost be worth the investment? There's no point spending $100Bn bringing water to the rain shadow desert in Australia. IT would still probably be cheaper to build vertical farms in farming skyscrapers.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I've thought of it before, and I tried to find climate comparisons between when Lake Eyre is full and when its dry.
Didn't have much luck.
I also wondered if the drop ( from sea level to lake eyre ) would be enough to generate electricity by the flow of water making up the evaporation. ( masses of sirpluss salt though ).

 

[Power Raid]

The major issue of the location of the fresh water sea concept is it covers our major uranium deposits.

As uranium is mobilised in fresh water, the water could see the uranium enter our rivers and agricultural lands.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The major issue of the location of the fresh water sea concept is it covers our major uranium deposits.

As uranium is mobilised in fresh water, the water could see the uranium enter our rivers and agricultural lands.

Not sure about that. Lake Eyre is over the great artesian basin, so you'd expect all sorts of ground water getting into the uranium if it was that simple.

But I cant see how it would ever be fresh water anyway.
What I'd like to know is "where does the evaporated water normally precipitate". Does NSW receive more rainfall when lake Eyre is not dry?

 

[Power Raid]

Not sure about that. Lake Eyre is over the great artesian basin, so you'd expect all sorts of ground water getting into the uranium if it was that simple.

But I cant see how it would ever be fresh water anyway.
What I'd like to know is "where does the evaporated water normally precipitate". Does NSW receive more rainfall when lake Eyre is not dry?

your right, it is never that simple but:

the redox front, salinity and structure holds it in the places it settles but is very easily mobilised with changing ground conditions

 

[Hap Hapablap]

(in a mr burns voice)

yes

 

[Power Raid]

(in a mr burns voice)

yes

Actually me burns does have a uranium deposit in the area (the person the character was based on)

 

[Sydney Bloods]

on this is it a chicken or the egg thing, did the land become dry and arid so the inland forests died due to the conditions or did the forests die, thus leaving no system for the soil to become naturally fertilised?

 

[RUNVS]

on this is it a chicken or the egg thing, did the land become dry and arid so the inland forests died due to the conditions or did the forests die, thus leaving no system for the soil to become naturally fertilised?

That is what I think as well. The reason I created this thread is because I simply didn't know what having an inland sea would do because in my mind having an inland sea would increase rainfall by a great deal but that is only based on very basic knowledge of weather patterns.

I just look at so much of Australia's land and think that it really is going to waste. There would be few countries in the world that have so much land that is not being used.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Theoretically yes - but it would cost a fortune to terraform your way there.

As far as farming goes it would be very hard to create viable farms in the middle of Aus. Look up north where they get lots of rain, and so lots of water. But very little agriculture beyond cattle. The soil is worn out after tens of millions years. To reinvogorate the soil in millions of hectares of land is virtually impossible. So an interesting idea, but one that you would rely on changing the ecology in ways that benefited humans in ways we cannot actually predict right now. But creating a viable farmland in what is naturally a desert zone is very hard, especially when the soil isn't naturally fertile.

At the end of WWII there was a push by some people to use the extra explosives left over to blow a channel through the hills near Port Augusta. Intention was to change the climate out there. Didn't pass the giggle test in 1946.


The idea of creating the Himalayas in the middle of Aus was worked out years ago. Would work in terms of trapping rain. But the cost was something extraordinary. I seem to remember it was many times the nation's GDP. It would involve solving engineering problems never before even attempted in any way, and would take decades at least. Then lastly gettign rain woudl of course lead to erosion and so the need to contantly rebuild a mountain range artificially.