Society/Culture Time for a flag of our own?

[medusala]

When it comes to war, no-one compares with the Europeans. WW1 and WW2 ring any bells?

So what? The Romans invaded Britain. Noone still whinges about it now.

As for environmental problems compare: global warming, landfills, massive desalination, a rate of extintion a thousand times higher, the introduction of foreign pests and vermin, the introduction of foreign diseases, etc

None of which makes your claim correct.

Any environmental impact the native inhabitants of Australia had on this continent absolutely pales in comparison to the ecological impact of the colonial powers.

How many large mammals have become extinct under white occupation? Tas tiger what else do you have?

Attempts to portray the aboriginals as some great guardians of the land are very misplaced

It is up there with the usual crowd talking of their rich oral history ie ABC speak for saying there was no written language.

 

[medusala]

No seriously. You meant that, didn't you.
Of course you did.

Sorry Meds...not engaging at all. Just shaking my head at the general ignorance of that statement.

How about you stop with the nonsense and attempt to refute the statement.

Which one of

a) tribal warfare
b) mammalian extinction
c) slash and burn

do you think is wrong?

 

[Malifice]

So what? The Romans invaded Britain. Noone still whinges about it now.

And how many Celtic warriors do you know?

None of which makes your claim correct.

Its more correct than your claim.

How many large mammals have become extinct under white occupation? Tas tiger what else do you have?

Just all the small ones. See also Cats, Foxes, Toads, Rabbits, Wild dogs.

Attempts to portray the aboriginals as some great guardians of the land are very misplaced

Attempts to portray colonial powers as friendly paternal educators and benefactors are far more misplaced.

It is up there with the usual crowd talking of their rich oral history ie ABC speak for saying there was no written language.

So? That somehow legitimizes genocide does it?

 

[medusala]

And how many Celtic warriors do you know?

What has that got to do with anything?

Attempts to portray colonial powers as peace loving paternal benefactors are fare more misplaced.

That is not even the point.

So? That somehow legitimizes genocide does it?

How typical. Never long before someone is so desperately wallowing in the mire they have to turn to that pathetic line.

 

[Suspense]

want this alien flag. want it now.

 

[Malifice]

Blah blah, I'm a racist blah blah.

Fine we get it.

Back on topic, I think the Flag should be changed to something more representative of a common shared identity.

Id also like to see green and gold incorporated into the design as the primary colors.

 

[medusala]

Fine we get it.

You get nothing.

You talk obvious nonense, others point it out.

You have no comeback other than the usual desperate effort of racist/redneck/genocide.

 

[Malifice]

You have no comeback other than the usual desperate effort of racist/redneck/genocide.

If the shoe fits.

Whats your view on the Flag?

I would think something like this would appeal:

 

[medusala]

It was because of time wasting, try hard balatrons like you that Godwin's law came about.

 

[GeorgeGrljusich]

So what? The Romans invaded Britain. Noone still whinges about it now.



None of which makes your claim correct.



How many large mammals have become extinct under white occupation? Tas tiger what else do you have?

Attempts to portray the aboriginals as some great guardians of the land are very misplaced

It is up there with the usual crowd talking of their rich oral history ie ABC speak for saying there was no written language.

*sighs*

How about you stop with the nonsense and attempt to refute the statement.

OK. If I must.

Which one of

a) tribal warfare

Tribal warfare?
You make it sound like Braveheart for ****s sake.
A retributional based society is hardly new in indigenous cultures.
That doesn't necessarily equate to hordes of thousands charging the sandhills to overtake the neighbouring mob.
Yes, they squabbled over land boundaries, women and the like.
Sounds almost westernlike.

b) mammalian extinction

Highly, highly debateable.
I assume that you are pointing towards the mega-fauna extinction?
Prove it I say.
Who knows..It may have been climate change!!..shock, horror...gasp.

c) slash and burn

Just this.

And you should read a bit more of this guys stuff. And google Sarah Hallam whilst you are at it.

Aboriginal management of the natural environment.

[SIZE=+1]There is striking difference between Aboriginal and European perception and management of natural environment. This difference is most clearly visible in the sciences and ethics the two societies have developed.[/SIZE] The difference between the Aboriginal and Western science is best explained by Michael J. Christie in his article " Aboriginal Science for the Ecologically Sustainable Future " (1). According to Dr. Christie, " Aboriginal Science is a mode of knowledge which has evolved to allow human beings to fit into, rather than outside of, the ecology ". The Western science on the other hand evolved in a world which " placed humanity apart and above the natural world, and in command of apparently inexhaustible resources. In our early days Western science appeared to need no ecological constraints, and it quite naturally expanded along all the directions which improved our potential to exploit the physical world for our comfort and wealth.
The absence of ecological constraints meant that Western management of land inevitably led to land degradation and extinction of species either through direct eradication or through whimsical introduction of exotic ones. In Aboriginal view this is mismanagement which they said turned the 'quiet' country they knew and managed into 'wild' country (2).




http://home.vicnet.net.au/~aar/enviro.htm

 

[Malifice]

It was because of time wasting, try hard balatrons like you that Godwin's law came about.

Dont cry. I'm sure there will be another Cronulla riot soon. You can vent your anger there.

Have a view on the Flag?

I'm dying to know what it is.

Surprise me.

 

[medusala]

And you should read a bit more of this guys stuff. And google Sarah Hallam whilst you are at it.

All I got was a casting agent

re aboriginal agriculture: there is no way you can have a modern society with that sort of agriculture. It would support very few people.

The Stone Age is a hard sell. You would starve a huge number.

 

[Malifice]

re aboriginal agriculture: there is no way you can have a modern society with that sort of agriculture. It would support very few people.

Why is 'modern society' that important.

If people were happy living that way for 40,000 years, who are you to tell them any differently?

Edit: **** you've made me derail the thread topic again. Why cant I let idiocy go unpunished?

 

[medusala]

If people were happy living that way for 40,000 years, who are you to tell them any differently?

If aborigines want to live that lifestyle on the gargantuan amount of land given to them I have no issues.

I get the distinct impression that many aborigines are not really that interested in that lifestyle though.

re flag, why cant the Union Jack just be removed?

Green and gold not a good look for a flag.

NB why do so many "progressive" sorts argue that modern society is no good. Would they prefer the era pre the welfare state? A curious argument.

 

[GeorgeGrljusich]

All I got was a casting agent

re aboriginal agriculture: there is no way you can have a modern society with that sort of agriculture. It would support very few people.

The Stone Age is a hard sell.

Dr. Michael J. Christie is a casting agent?

Only if you say so meds.

Most people who know something about the topic regard him as preeminent on the subject.
You know...peer reviewed and unchallenged.

Wasn't it you who accused me of talking nonsense and not refuting a statement earlier in this thread/page??

P.S. Nice selective quote that was taken out of context matey.

 

[medusala]

Dr. Michael J. Christie is a casting agent?

you said google Sarah Hallam! See post 350.

 

[GeorgeGrljusich]

you said google Sarah Hallam!

I'm not bit pattern.

But I can spam the thread with her links if you like.

Best you do the research yourself methinks. She is also preeminent.

 

[Malifice]

If aborigines want to live that lifestyle on the gargantuan amount of land given to them I have no issues.

No one 'gave' them anything. It was never ours to give.

I get the distinct impression that many aborigines are not really that interested in that lifestyle though.

Its their choice though isn't it?

NB why do so many "progressive" sorts argue that modern society is no good. Would they prefer the era pre the welfare state? A curious argument.

Who said I was progressive? I simply think your arguments were extremely ethnocentric. I'm sure you would agree.

re flag, why cant the Union Jack just be removed?

Because it would look a bit plain. Id like a bit more design to it than that.

FWIW I don't want to replace the UK flag with the Indigenous one.

 

[medusala]

No one 'gave' them anything. It was never ours to give.

It was it was Crown land.

You may as well argue Crown land in the UK belongs to the Welsh.

Who said I was progressive? I simply think your arguments were extremely ethnocentric. I'm sure you would agree.

I believe not. Everyone should be treated equally, with no special rights for any one group.

If I stated on here that I demand the French send me a cheque and give me some land for their efforts with the Huguenots then I doubt I would get much support. Ditto if someone of Greek ancestry demanded Constantinople be returned.

Because it would look a bit plain. Id like a bit more design to it than that.

Minimalist is good re flags (and I would say anthems as well)

I like the French, Russian, Danish, Swiss and Japanese flags. The South African one on the other hand is just trying too hard. At least the Canandians made a decent hash of changing theirs.

 

[medusala]

Best you do the research yourself methinks. She is also preeminent.

He googles better than her. Anyway I thougth the debate had moved on.

http://www.news.com.au/national/abo...megafauna-report/story-e6frfkvr-1225822507863


Writing in the journal Science, geochronologist Bert Roberts, of the University of Wollongong, and earth scientist Barry Brook, of the University of Adelaide, claimed the cause of megafauna extinction coincided with the arrival of the first Australians between 60,000 and 45,000 years ago

 

[GeorgeGrljusich]

He googles better than her. Anyway I thougth the debate had moved on.

http://www.news.com.au/national/abo...megafauna-report/story-e6frfkvr-1225822507863


Writing in the journal Science, geochronologist Bert Roberts, of the University of Wollongong, and earth scientist Barry Brook, of the University of Adelaide, claimed the cause of megafauna extinction coincided with the arrival of the first Australians between 60,000 and 45,000 years ago

Moved on??

Isn't your and smithy's argument intrinsically linked to the non-participation of Aboriginal society to the betterment of Australia, and the lack, therefore, of the need to include them in any way on a new flag?

Oh
And here's a quote from the very first paragraph of your link.

THE giant marsupials, reptiles and flightless birds - known as megafauna - that inhabited Australia more than 40,000 years ago were most likely killed off by early Australians, according to new research that shows mankind and the huge beasts co-existed only for a short period, The Australian reported.

I most likely had sex with Jennifer Hawkins that night.
Yet, I can't be sure.

 

[Malifice]

It was it was Crown land.

Where Native title was never extinguished. See the High Court of Australia in Mabo (No 2). Ergo nothing was given. Its just the rest of Australia (i.e. where Native title had been extinguished by being 'washed away by the tide of history') was taken.

I believe not. Everyone should be treated equally, with no special rights for any one group.

So you dont agree with Workers comp or Disability support pension? Or hostels (free acomodation) for disadvantaged youth?

 

[Pessimistic]

I agre wirh this and the republic.

Problem with the flag is there is no obvious one which has captured the publics imagination (Boxing kangaroo, eureka, native flag) all too narrow focussed.

Same with the republic. Apart from the consitutional issues, when it gets serious a bunch of half assed celebrities take over and it becomes a joke, Imagine Turnbull and McGuire as national leaders. They had a TV special last time - which was broadcast in england too - and it was an embarrasing cross between the footy show and hey hey its saturday. After spruiking the pros of a republic to our rellos in england we had them giving us quizzical looks while watching the 'debate'.

On footnote. I live in kooyong lectorate - as blue blood as they come - one of the safest lib seats - Bob Menzies old seat Got Highest pro-republic vote in the country in the referendum

 

[JimDocker]

Just a quick read of this thread shows how difficult it will be to get consensus on a new flag.

As I said earlier, I am English born but would happily see the Union Jack removed from the Australian flag.

I just find that this has degenerated into an argument about what a flag should represent with no respect being given to the opposing sides of the argument which will be required should a mature debate take place. Hating English people is no reason to change the flag and hating Aborigines is no reason not to change it.

 

[Malifice]

Hating English people is no reason to change the flag and hating Aborigines is no reason not to change it.

No one hates either side (aside from the more extreme amongst us).

Its just a side debate as whether the flag should contain some recognition of Indigenous Australians, or retain the overt British reference contained on the current ANF.

Personally, I dont want to see any overt referece to any specific cultural group on any propsed flag. Im happy for a subtle reference for both to be included (akin to the South African flag that incorporated the colors of the colonial power with the traditional colors of the original inhabitants).

Primarily I would prefer a design that represents all Australians, whether born here or overseas, Indigenous or migrant.