Recommitted Todd Goldstein

[Engimal]

Ryder's got better tapwork

Incorrect.

Goldstein has never been in the top two rucks - massively overrated player.

lol

 

[Engimal]

Don't bother, if anyone wants the truth re Goldy visit the Norf board and see what the real supporters think of their one trick pony.
Goldy played his first good game for the yearr 2 weeks ago, so no surprise the hardliners break out the AA bullshit.

*North. If you want to ride Ryder's disco stick, find the appropriate thread to do it, thanks.

 

[Wild Bill]

Ryder's got better tapwork, he's better as an additional midfielder, he's better up forward, and he's a better marking target in general. He can also run and carry and has superior disposal. He generally rises to the occasion, rather than shrinking away when the pressure's on. Ryder will probably finish top ten in the B&F, if the Essendon board player of the year votes are anything to go by. Goldstein has never been in the top two rucks - massively overrated player.

2 ruckmen made the Aa squad in 2011 and 2013. Ryder never has - this will be another year he won't.

Why has Ryder been disappointing in your last 4 B&F if he can do all that you just posted? Sounds like he is a mix between Polly, Madden and Cox. Yet reality is he has glimpses but like players like Waite, Higgins etc we only ever get glimpses. He will sulk and not get involved as much as he will dominate a game. Pass

 

[Wild Bill]

Surely my mention of how overrated Goldstein is made it a relevant and insightful contribution to the discussion?

You think Ryder we think Goldy. You made some airy fairy comments but how about we use some cold hard facts.

AA squad noms:
Goldy - 2
Patty - 0

Top 3 B&F results
Goldy - 1
Patty - 0

2014 coaches votes
Goldy -21
Patty - 3

But but but - Ryder can jump much higher - he is the best......

 

[Big Fresh]

You think Ryder we think Goldy. You made some airy fairy comments but how about we use some cold hard facts.

AA squad noms:
Goldy - 2
Patty - 0

Top 3 B&F results
Goldy - 1
Patty - 0

2014 coaches votes
Goldy -21
Patty - 3

But but but - Ryder can jump much higher - he is the best......

I'll try to add some substance to my airy fairy comments then: Ryder's superior ground level ability is evidenced by his superior clearance numbers, his superior versatility and ability up forward is evidenced by his superior goal tally, and his superiority as a marking target is evidenced by his higher number of marks and contested marks. I don't have stats for his superior tapwork but one can plainly see it watching the two play, same goes for his run and carry. Similar story for his foot skills, where you need to actually watch a game to notice it, though the fact that he kicks it often whereas Goldstein chooses to handball off hints at the disparity in kicking ability. The AA committee is not a reliable authority, not that I believe Ryder has at all been deserving of inclusion in past years. In past years he has certainly been inconsistent - not the case in 2014 however. Will still struggle for selection in the squad with Sandilands' and Jacobs' form - it won't be Goldstein keeping him out though. The coaches' votes in theory should be credible, but do you really think Priddis has been Boomer's equal this season?

2 ruckmen made the Aa squad in 2011 and 2013. Ryder never has - this will be another year he won't.

Why has Ryder been disappointing in your last 4 B&F if he can do all that you just posted? Sounds like he is a mix between Polly, Madden and Cox. Yet reality is he has glimpses but like players like Waite, Higgins etc we only ever get glimpses. He will sulk and not get involved as much as he will dominate a game. Pass

I'm not saying he's the best ruckman ever in all those areas - just better than Goldstein.

 

[Wild Bill]

I'll try to add some substance to my airy fairy comments then: Ryder's superior ground level ability is evidenced by his superior clearance numbers, his superior versatility and ability up forward is evidenced by his superior goal tally, and his superiority as a marking target is evidenced by his higher number of marks and contested marks. I don't have stats for his superior tapwork but one can plainly see it watching the two play, same goes for his run and carry. Similar story for his foot skills, where you need to actually watch a game to notice it, though the fact that he kicks it often whereas Goldstein chooses to handball off hints at the disparity in kicking ability. The AA committee is not a reliable authority, not that I believe Ryder has at all been deserving of inclusion in past years. In past years he has certainly been inconsistent - not the case in 2014 however. Will still struggle for selection in the squad with Sandilands' and Jacobs' form - it won't be Goldstein keeping him out though. The coaches' votes in theory should be credible, but do you really think Priddis has been Boomer's equal this season?

I'm not saying he's the best ruckman ever in all those areas - just better than Goldstein.

Ryder plays as a permanent forward. As far as ruckman go Goldy is better. The AA selectors are 1,000 times more reliable than a poster that has never been involved at the highest level. And you pick 1 player that has jumped up with coaches votes - although you have no idea of what the coach has set him on game day to do.
3 v 21 is a white wash. Ryder runs faster and jumps higher - he just does not influence games. Enjoy the jumping.

 

[Wild Bill]

I would also steer clear of the afl player ratings. Ouch.

 

[Jab]

This isn't the Bay. It's North Melbourne, not Norf.

 

[222EB]

Ryder plays as a permanent forward. As far as ruckman go Goldy is better. The AA selectors are 1,000 times more reliable than a poster that has never been involved at the highest level. And you pick 1 player that has jumped up with coaches votes - although you have no idea of what the coach has set him on game day to do.
3 v 21 is a white wash. Ryder runs faster and jumps higher - he just does not influence games. Enjoy the jumping.

Lol and lol, your football knowledge is terrible stats boy
Enjoy Goldy's tapwork cause there aint nothing else

 

[Big Fresh]

I would also steer clear of the afl player ratings. Ouch.

AFL Player Ratings named Ryder as the second best ruckman this season - behind Sandilands, not Goldstein - in their mid-point team of the year: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-06-13/the-inquirer-best-mid-point-team

 

[timtamWB]

AFL Player Ratings named Ryder as the second best ruckman this season - behind Sandilands, not Goldstein - in their mid-point team of the year: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-06-13/the-inquirer-best-mid-point-team

AFL player ratings also say that Brandon Matera deserved a bench spot over players like Rockliff, Liberatore, Prestia, Heppell, O'Meara etc. and that Matthew Suckling was one of the best HBF's at the mid way point of this year. In other words, it's absolute hogwash.

Mind you, I'm not debating whether Goldstein is better or worse than Ryder, because this thread is Goldstein, not Goldstein vs Ryder. I'm just saying the AFL player ratings mean less than jack s**t.

 

[Mercuri Rising]

Ryder plays as a permanent forward.

Without trying to wade into this argument too much - between the above, and saying that Bellchambers can't get a game (technically correct, mind you, but off the back of a persistent injury - zero pre-season and struggled for match fitness during recovery), probably give it a rest?

Unless you're suggesting that Ryder earns an AA spot as a forward, which a) no, and b) doesn't gel with the past two pages of your posts.

 

[Wild Bill]

Without trying to wade into this argument too much - between the above, and saying that Bellchambers can't get a game (technically correct, mind you, but off the back of a persistent injury - zero pre-season and struggled for match fitness during recovery), probably give it a rest?

Unless you're suggesting that Ryder earns an AA spot as a forward, which a) no, and b) doesn't gel with the past two pages of your posts.

You can't bring up kicking more goals when Ryder has played as a forward.
With Daniher out bellchambers will have to play.

 

[Wild Bill]

Lol and lol, your football knowledge is terrible stats boy
Enjoy Goldy's tapwork causeu there aint nothing else

I am on the way to a massive 3 peat. I have a great handle on your team. So Ryder has never played as a forward? I am sure he has lined up there at the start of games.

Interesting on the reverse coaches votes that Ryders opponents have recieved 9 times more coaches votes than Goldy's.

Maybe bomber also thinks he is lazy. But hey he is a good jumper.

 

[222EB]

DJ Dupree said: ↑
He has more good games than not, if all you're expecting from him is to tap the ball.

Those defending him on that basis fail to see the bigger issue; we're not expecting enough from the players in this team. Yes, he beats most average tap ruckmen, but why stop there? That only gives us advantage in the centre about 20-30% of the time if we are lucky. What's wrong with trying to improve other aspects of your game, like contested marking, goal kicking?

Why is the bare minimum always good enough? Why do we always have apologists on here arguing for players based on what they do, not seeing what they should also be doing? It's an attitude that accepts mediocrity.

I like Goldy, but I'll always maintain that he holds us back. He's limited. He takes no marks, kicks no goals, and essentially we're carrying a lumbering bloke who can tap the ball better than someone else most of the time. I'd like to see him play angry and dominate a forward line, but he is awful as a key forward even if it's just for 5 minutes. Why is it not okay to want him to improve on this? He could give us another option when we're struggling. He's a one dimensional player, that plays that one dimension very well, but holds our team back overall.

The years of having an inflexible big bloke doing nothing but tapping went out the window years ago.

Carey said a few weeks ago that if you're a ruckman that doesn't take marks around the ground, you shouldn't be out there. I don't always agree with Carey, but I immediately thought of Goldy when he said that.


Rational NM supporters can see it clear as day

 

[Wild Bill]

DJ Dupree said: ↑
He has more good games than not, if all you're expecting from him is to tap the ball.

Those defending him on that basis fail to see the bigger issue; we're not expecting enough from the players in this team. Yes, he beats most average tap ruckmen, but why stop there? That only gives us advantage in the centre about 20-30% of the time if we are lucky. What's wrong with trying to improve other aspects of your game, like contested marking, goal kicking?

Why is the bare minimum always good enough? Why do we always have apologists on here arguing for players based on what they do, not seeing what they should also be doing? It's an attitude that accepts mediocrity.

I like Goldy, but I'll always maintain that he holds us back. He's limited. He takes no marks, kicks no goals, and essentially we're carrying a lumbering bloke who can tap the ball better than someone else most of the time. I'd like to see him play angry and dominate a forward line, but he is awful as a key forward even if it's just for 5 minutes. Why is it not okay to want him to improve on this? He could give us another option when we're struggling. He's a one dimensional player, that plays that one dimension very well, but holds our team back overall.

The years of having an inflexible big bloke doing nothing but tapping went out the window years ago.

Carey said a few weeks ago that if you're a ruckman that doesn't take marks around the ground, you shouldn't be out there. I don't always agree with Carey, but I immediately thought of Goldy when he said that.


Rational NM supporters can see it clear as day

Really?? You are quoting a poster. Jesus maybe I will roll a few of essendon posts on Ryder.

Watch his next 6 minutes after the Petrie/Lake incident - turned and won us the game with 3 of the best centre ruck taps you could hope for in a row and then a big mark on the wing that resulted in a goal. We kicked 4 goals in 6 minutes all on the back of Goldy's work.

That is why he has twice been in the best two rucks in the comp at years end and what seperates him from the Ryders and Bellchambers types.

 

[Champion_Data]

AFL Player Ratings named Ryder as the second best ruckman this season - behind Sandilands, not Goldstein - in their mid-point team of the year: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-06-13/the-inquirer-best-mid-point-team

FYI, that was a mid-season team. If it was to be done again now (halfway through Round 18), it would be:

1. Sandilands
2. Jacobs
3. Goldstein
4. Ryder
5. Mumford

 

[blueiris]

FYI, that was a mid-season team. If it was to be done again now (halfway through Round 18), it would be:

1. Sandilands
2. Jacobs
3. Goldstein
4. Ryder
5. Mumford

What about Martin who's probably been the dominant ruckman over the last 6 weeks

 

[Champion_Data]

What about Martin who's probably been the dominant ruckman over the last 6 weeks

178 hitouts from 474 ruck contests in his past six games. 38% win rate - ranked 24th of 28 players with 100 or more ruck contests in that time.

35 hitouts to advantage. 7.4% win rate - ranked 27th of the same 28 players.

 

[Ambrosia]

3 v 21 is a white wash. Ryder runs faster and jumps higher - he just does not influence games. Enjoy the jumping.

You're trying to argue that Goldstein is having a greater impact than Ryder while averaging less; kicks, marks, contested marks, goals, marks inside 50, disposals and clearances.

I think you're letting your hatred of Essendon cloud your judgement on this one.

 

[benbanjo]

You're trying to argue that Goldstein is having a greater impact than Ryder while averaging less; kicks, marks, contested marks, goals, marks inside 50, disposals and clearances.

I think you're letting your hatred of Essendon cloud your judgement on this one.

Get out of here with your Ryder BS... start a polls thread and see what happens....

 

[Wild Bill]

You're trying to argue that Goldstein is having a greater impact than Ryder while averaging less; kicks, marks, contested marks, goals, marks inside 50, disposals and clearances.

I think you're letting your hatred of Essendon cloud your judgement on this one.

So why has he less coaches votes? Disappointing in your b&fs? And never in the Aa squad? It's more to do with your mob over rating another player. Myers is better than Rioli and comparisons with Carey and Carlisle. Amazing.

Goldy has done it at a higher level for longer.

 

[Ambrosia]

So why has he less coaches votes? Disappointing in your b&fs? And never in the Aa squad? It's more to do with your mob over rating another player. Myers is better than Rioli and comparisons with Carey and Carlisle. Amazing.

Goldy has done it at a higher level for longer.

Not this year he hasn't. Not by a long shot.

 

[Wild Bill]

Not this year he hasn't. Not by a long shot.

Ryder having a decent year - well that is way over due. Goldy has had much better years that what Ryder is now producing. Agree it's closer this year - but let mr inconsistent do it for a few years before you want to compare.

The coaches certainly don't agree with you.

 

[Shaneprice97]

Collingwood would be the club that would look at him the most but they won't have a first round pick. So a deal would to be done but why trade your only ruck option that's really stupid

Nah, i dont think the club are interested in anything more than another Ben Hudson, just someone we can play when needed and can do a serviceable job.

We are putting in alot of gametime into Brodie Grundy and Jarrod Witts, they obviously arent the best ruckman at the present but hopefully we gain the rewards in a few seasons time.