Tom Liberatore vs Tom Rockliff

[ManOfClay]

There it is again

There is what again? a view differing to yours?

 

[Big Sauce 21]

There is what again? a view differing to yours?

gets 40 touches immediately talked down as ineffective.

 

[ManOfClay]

gets 40 touches immediately talked down as ineffective.

That is not what the last post said. Just because his impact is overstated doesn't mean he's ineffective.

AFL coaches seem to rate Liberatore more.

 

[timtamWB]

I agree with Dan of the many n's in that Rockliff's impact isn't as great as stats suggest, but that being said, Rockliff is clearly ahead of Libba this year.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

gets 40 touches immediately talked down as ineffective.

Not ineffective. Getting 40 touches is in itself an impact on the game. I just feel that his statistics aren't always representative of his influence. When he can use his ability to be damaging on more of those disposals, he'll be a top five player in the competition. Right now, I just don't think he is.

But regardless it's just my opinion. Some agree, some don't; that's what makes the forum interesting. I'm a big fan of Rockliff and think he has all the tools required to be a genuine superstar (and in the interests of balance - at the risk of alienating most of my fellow Dogs supporters - I don't think Libba has all the tools to do so), but I don't think he's quite there yet.

 

[Big Sauce 21]

Not ineffective. Getting 40 touches is in itself an impact on the game. I just feel that his statistics aren't always representative of his influence. When he can use his ability to be damaging on more of those disposals, he'll be a top five player in the competition. Right now, I just don't think he is.

But regardless it's just my opinion. Some agree, some don't; that's what makes the forum interesting. I'm a big fan of Rockliff and think he has all the tools required to be a genuine superstar (and in the interests of balance - at the risk of alienating most of my fellow Dogs supporters - I don't think Libba has all the tools to do so), but I don't think he's quite there yet.

that's fair enough mate, but how can he improve his game to be more damaging ?

 

[Dom PC]

Apart from goal assists what doesn't make Rockliff a top 5 mid in the comp this year? Easy to say he isn't damaging... harder to prove it, he would be close to the hardest two way running midfielder in the comp.

 

[timtamWB]

Apart from goal assists what doesn't make Rockliff a top 5 mid in the comp this year? Easy to say he isn't damaging... harder to prove it, he would be close to the hardest two way running midfielder in the comp.

The thing is, all the statistics point to him being damaging. But if you watch, and I'm going to be VERY general here to make a point and of course this isn't always the case, a Pendlebury 30-touch game compared to a Rockliff 45-touch game, and Pendlebury's game would be more damaging. It's just the way he uses his possessions to create, he values his possessions. Not to say that Rockliff doesn't, but some of the time his disposals just aren't as damaging as he could be. And of course he's far better than someone like Boyd, and 35 touches from Rocky is easily better than 45 touches from a ball magnet like Boyd.

I'm a big fan of Rocky, and you can't really prove that he isn't as damaging as he could be with his possessions using statistics. You just have to watch him. Still an absolutely fantastic player.

 

[ShooterMcGavin8]

Looks at his stats. how is he not impacting games. he's number 1 for touches 6 for contested 1 for tackles and high in clearances, marks for mids that aren't outside players and rebound 50's. So he gets around the field really well.

 

[doggies ftw]

Definitely couldn't go past Rocky at this stage, reckon by the time Libbas his age he will catch him though.

 

[Tragic sainter]

Definitely couldn't go past Rocky at this stage, reckon by the time Libbas his age he will catch him though.

Agree with others comments re rocky not being that damaging. He just doesn't seem to have the vision and creativity of your abletts and pendles. He always seems to take the easy option when the superstars pick the most damaging option.

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

Apart from goal assists what doesn't make Rockliff a top 5 mid in the comp this year? Easy to say he isn't damaging... harder to prove it, he would be close to the hardest two way running midfielder in the comp.

It's a conclusion you reach by watching the game.

I sat 10 rows from the front and kept a close eye on Brisbane's players at all stoppages for the game against the Pies last week, and my immediate impression was '* me, Rockliff's everywhere but it's the likes of Taylor doing all the damage.' Likewise against us, except it was bloody Zorko and Bewick doing the damage.

It's just an impression I've formed based off the 10 or so Brisbane games I've watched this year, and plenty beforehand.

It's not a slight on Rockliff, some players have the vision and some don't. If he can add that composure and vision to his game (not easy), he'll be the best player in the competition. It's something I notice with Bontempelli, a little bit. He doesn't get a lot of the ball at this stage, but when he gets it around a stoppage, the handball is always considered and extremely damaging. I'd be wanting Rocky to, and I stress that this is all in the space of a split second, look around for the better second option and use it, and if the first is the best, go for it. That's a somewhat laboured and yet easy method of explaining it.

 

[SizeMatters]

Rocky has elite vision and is a few steps ahead of the game. His disposals aren't damaging and even he himself acknowledges it (no 60m bullet passes etc.) , but he draws our most damaging playing like Hanley, Zorko etc into the game by demanding them to lead to where he positions the ball after disposing of it. He will put the ball almost always to advantage of our players to allow them continue on without breaking stride and he will gut run to the next contest and repeat. He is probably the most complete two way running midfielder you can find in the game today. He is the glue that keeps everyone together and without him we would be struggling big time. When we get a full strength midfield in next season he would be able to push forward more often and can easily score a few goals a game.

 

[The Joker]

A workman like 45 touches, nothing much came from them but he worked hard all day. I was shocked at 1/4 time to see he had 12 touches but only 2 kicks. His first possession inside F50 was halfway through the 3rd quarter.

There is a reason Ross said there was only 2 options (Hanley & Zorko) when he was asked who he would be tagging prematch.

 

[Blueboiiz]

There is a reason Ross said there was only 2 options (Hanley & Zorko) when he was asked who he would be tagging prematch.

Probably because there is a higher chance of them being tagged out of the game.

 

[Big Sauce 21]

Agree with others comments re rocky not being that damaging. He just doesn't seem to have the vision and creativity of your abletts and pendles. He always seems to take the easy option when the superstars pick the most damaging option.

Disagree 100% His vision and creativity is his strongest part in the game. His Pace and busting packs on the (quite) low side.

 

[The Joker]

Probably because there is a higher chance of them being tagged out of the game.

More like you could let Rockcliff get 90 disposals in 2 games and still win by 83 and 58 points.

The lesson here is you dont tag players just to tag them out of the game.

 

[Morganashlee]

To accumulate the stats Rockliff does on such a consistent basis is super impressive and 40 touches a game will always bring some influence. Hanley cops a tag over him because of the run, carry and his ability to penetrate inside 50 which Rockliff doesn't do as regularly. He is getting guys like Hanley the ball though so without him the outside runners wouldn't have a chance to be damaging.

Dane Swan was rarely the midfielder tagged despite his ability to rack up touches. He has a Brownlow, they don't.

If Rockliff can reign in the undisciplined acts and continue to deliver in a team that will win more games, he is likely to get one too.

 

[Dom PC]

More like you could let Rockcliff get 90 disposals in 2 games and still win by 83 and 58 points.

The lesson here is you dont tag players just to tag them out of the game.

So you think there is no correlation with us being 1-5 at the start of the season and Rockliff averaging 27 disposals a game and then us being 6-6 with Rockliff averaging over 35 a game. If you look in the open your eyes section - you will find Rockliff has done one hell of a job being the lone ranger in the middle (inside mid) for us. It is no coincidence that Zorko and Hanley have come into some fantastic form since Rockliff has exploded in the past 12 weeks (it is him feeding them).

This no damage claim has no basis - he averages more disposals and more effective disposals (and more tackles) than GAJ, so he certainly isn't serving it on a plater to the opposition. If you stop Rockliff, Hanley and Zorko have little chance of dominating the game, simply because they have to go in and get their own ball (which they certainly aren't as good at as Rockliff).

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

You can effectively dispose of the ball without being damaging.

I still think you're not quite grasping the point because you don't like that it's being made. Of course he's crucial, of course he racks it up and of course he's a wrecking ball without ball in hand.

The point is that his disposals while plentiful and effective are more often than not link play, and it's not him that busts the stoppage open with a well considered and creative handball, which most players don't have the skill, vision or 'time', if you like, to pull off.

While he's 'damaging' in a sense, his disposals simply are not, for the most part. Effective, but not damaging. Nobody's suggesting that his stats don't mean anything, only that they don't paint the full picture.

 

[JasRulz63]

You can effectively dispose of the ball without being damaging.

I still think you're not quite grasping the point because you don't like that it's being made. Of course he's crucial, of course he racks it up and of course he's a wrecking ball without ball in hand.

The point is that his disposals while plentiful and effective are more often than not link play, and it's not him that busts the stoppage open with a well considered and creative handball, which most players don't have the skill, vision or 'time', if you like, to pull off.

While he's 'damaging' in a sense, his disposals simply are not, for the most part. Effective, but not damaging. Nobody's suggesting that his stats don't mean anything, only that they don't paint the full picture.

Sure he's getting a lot of possession in link play, but he gets his fair share of inside ball as well which isn't link play. He's top 10 in the league in contested ball and clearances per game and gets around 2 contested possessions for every 3 uncontested possessions. A player that's getting effective disposals out of contested situations is damaging in their own right IMO.

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

Sure he's getting a lot of possession in link play, but he gets his fair share of inside ball as well which isn't link play. He's top 10 in the league in contested ball and clearances per game and gets around 2 contested possessions for every 3 uncontested possessions. A player that's getting effective disposals out of contested situations is damaging in their own right IMO.

He is damaging, but we keep circling back to the same point that it's only a facet of his game that isn't damaging.

He does win his own ball (he's practically bringing his own ball at the moment), but the point is that the ensuing disposal doesn't do a whole lot of damage in the context of the stoppage and the game, it's the receiver (a player that is still in the guts, not a 'seagull' outside mid) that creates or dishes off to another player. While it does register as an effective disposal and it's certainly a very important part of the engine room, what I'm trying to say is that it's not him doing the damage with the ball - he wins the ball, he moves it on, but he's not deliberating or utilising the second option which is the difference between him and players like Ablett/Pendlebury.

When players have that part of their game down, you bloody well notice it. Pendlebury's been at it for 7 or so years. Rocky lifts his team, and he's exceptionally good in many aspects, but he just lacks that extra couple of seconds and forethought with disposal at the moment.

Rocky adds that to his game, and starts kicking a few more goals, and he's arguably the best in the competition.

 

[Dom PC]

You can effectively dispose of the ball without being damaging.

I still think you're not quite grasping the point because you don't like that it's being made. Of course he's crucial, of course he racks it up and of course he's a wrecking ball without ball in hand.

The point is that his disposals while plentiful and effective are more often than not link play, and it's not him that busts the stoppage open with a well considered and creative handball, which most players don't have the skill, vision or 'time', if you like, to pull off.

While he's 'damaging' in a sense, his disposals simply are not, for the most part. Effective, but not damaging. Nobody's suggesting that his stats don't mean anything, only that they don't paint the full picture.

No I accept his goal assists are down (we a bottom 4 team goal kicking wise which certainly does not help Rocky).

But I am just not sure your watching many of Rockliff's games if that's what you think. His possessions are more often than not link play? You've really lost me there. He is 6th in contested possessions and 8th in clearances, he pretty much has matched all of libba's out put on the inside and been a monster everywhere else.

I guess what i am saying is other than goal assists where is he not damaging???

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

No I accept his goal assists are down (we a bottom 4 team goal kicking wise which certainly does not help Rocky).

But I am just not sure your watching many of Rockliff's games if that's what you think. His possessions are more often than not link play? You've really lost me there. He is 6th in contested possessions and 8th in clearances, he pretty much has matched all of libba's out put on the inside and been a monster everywhere else.

I guess what i am saying is other than goal assists where is he not damaging???

I don't care about his goal assists. That's got nothing to do with the point I'm making. Nor does Liberatore, while the thread title indicates otherwise. It's not a pissing contest as to which player is better at what, I'm just highlighting a (rare) inadequacy in Rockliff's game.

I've watched Rockliff play 10+ times this year. We form our own impressions based on what we see so it's okay to disagree without pulling that line out because you're a Brisbane supporter and I'm not.

Link play perhaps isn't the right term for it, seeing as it's used to describe the style of players like Dane Swan, who bores little resemblance to Rockliff as a player. I'm sure as a Brisbane supporter that watches the Lions play each week, you see that plenty of Rockliff's disposals are over very short distances to players that aren't in all that much better a position than he is. That's essentially what I'm trying to say.

Hence, his disposals aren't damaging (I'm starting to tire of this word), as much as other facets of his game are (tackling, contested ball, uncontested ball etc). Disposals that open up the stoppage and the game are the ones that players deliberate on, choosing the best option out of the 5 or 6 that present themselves, whereas Rockliff tends to go with the first which isn't always the most effective.

He gets his hands on the ball before the opposition and allows his team first crack at the ball, which is crucial, but while his DE% is relatively good, it's an incredibly misleading stat in that regard, and has no bearing on how damaging his disposals are in any given stoppage or game.

 

[Dom PC]

I don't care about his goal assists. That's got nothing to do with the point I'm making. Nor does Liberatore, while the thread title indicates otherwise. It's not a pissing contest as to which player is better at what, I'm just highlighting a (rare) inadequacy in Rockliff's game.

I've watched Rockliff play 10+ times this year. We form our own impressions based on what we see so it's okay to disagree without pulling that line out because you're a Brisbane supporter and I'm not.

Link play perhaps isn't the right term for it, seeing as it's used to describe the style of players like Dane Swan, who bores little resemblance to Rockliff as a player. I'm sure as a Brisbane supporter that watches the Lions play each week, you see that plenty of Rockliff's disposals are over very short distances to players that aren't in all that much better a position than he is. That's essentially what I'm trying to say.

Hence, his disposals aren't damaging (I'm starting to tire of this word), as much as other facets of his game are (tackling, contested ball, uncontested ball etc). Disposals that open up the stoppage and the game are the ones that players deliberate on, choosing the best option out of the 5 or 6 that present themselves, whereas Rockliff tends to go with the first which isn't always the most effective.

He gets his hands on the ball before the opposition and allows his team first crack at the ball, which is crucial, but while his DE% is relatively good, it's an incredibly misleading stat in that regard, and has no bearing on how damaging his disposals are in any given stoppage or game.

Fair enough, your point was better made in this post. While I don't totally agree, I do accept (and appreciate) the constructive criticism. I agree some of your points have grounds, but are being exaggerated and even the best of the best do what your saying at times.