Towards a National Competition - 1977-1986 Timeline

[greatwhiteshark]

Ideally, perhaps, but politics and money meant it was never going to happen.

The Vic clubs wouldn't support any plan that didn't have them playing in the top league in their own right (the big ones due to pride, the smaller ones due to self preservation), and without the VFL's support, no national league was possible.

Agree mate and that is why we have what we have.

 

[The_Wookie]

We also have to remember that the VFL's history is one of actually breaking away from an existing league to be no. 1 - bloody mindedly destroying the VFA over the course of almost 100 years, in other words, it is in the VFL's DNA to be top dog and control everything - that wasn't going to change when discussions turned to a national league.

The VFL was preparing to go its own way regardless. If it had to, it would have sold other private licenses or relocated Fitzroy or another club, to get the money it needed. As a consequence they didnt feel the need to compromise on the NFL/SANFL/WAFL scheme.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

The VFL was preparing to go its own way regardless. If it had to, it would have sold other private licenses or relocated Fitzroy or another club, to get the money it needed. As a consequence they didnt feel the need to compromise on the NFL/SANFL/WAFL scheme.

No national comp could ever work without WA and SA. Relocated clubs to WA or SA would of been massive failures with no chance of being embraced by the locals. WA and SA didn't realise at the time just how much pull they had heading into the future, they were going broke just as the VFL was so they could of held out for a few years joined at the hip and demanded more for their local clubs.
They didn't do that, they got paid off to make long term decisions for short term gain and they now pay the price of that. The VFL didn't do it the WAFL and SANFL stuffed it up.

 

[telsor]

We also have to remember that the VFL's history is one of actually breaking away from an existing league to be no. 1 - bloody mindedly destroying the VFA over the course of almost 100 years, in other words, it is in the VFL's DNA to be top dog and control everything - that wasn't going to change when discussions turned to a national league.

Generally, yes (although I think you're overstating the vindictiveness of it).

The other point is that the VFL were the ones who made the move to form a national comp (not just had a few hypothetical chats with the NFL)...There was nothing stopping the WAFL & SANFL from going without Vic, working together and forming a combined comp...They could have added a few other sides from other states and either tried to lure a VFL team away or started a franchise in Vic, and tried to leapfrog the VFL into being the prime national league ... but it was the VFL that acted, and thus they got control.

 

[telsor]

No national comp could ever work without WA and SA. Relocated clubs to WA or SA would of been massive failures with no chance of being embraced by the locals. WA and SA didn't realise at the time just how much pull they had heading into the future, they were going broke just as the VFL was so they could of held out for a few years joined at the hip and demanded more for their local clubs.
They didn't do that, they got paid off to make long term decisions for short term gain and they now pay the price of that. The VFL didn't do it the WAFL and SANFL stuffed it up.

but WA & SA clubs wanted in, so there was no real prospect of being without WA and SA for long ... WAFL/SANFL's hands were in large part forced (most clearly in SA's case with Port trying to jump ship, but WAFL clubs had applied to shift).

 

[Roylion]

The VFL was preparing to go its own way regardless. If it had to, it would have sold other private licenses or relocated Fitzroy or another club, to get the money it needed. As a consequence they didnt feel the need to compromise on the NFL/SANFL/WAFL scheme.

I don't think relocating Fitzroy or any other Victorian club would have generated money for the VFL-AFL in the short term. Quite apart from the fact that VFL-AFL can't relocate clubs at will, relocating existing clubs was likely to cost them money in setting up the club in a new city etc. etc, unless lucrative deals could have been negotiated with government where the infrastructure already existed or was available. (e.g Fitzroy to Canberra)

Issuing private licences would have been more successful in generating money short term. However private licences have the danger of owners closing down or rebranding the club at whim, alienating supporters. In my view one of the strengths of the VFL-AFL over the past hundred years is that there has always been a core of competing clubs that have had steady brands, particularly in Victoria. Certainly there have been additions and changes to a number of clubs, but the core has been consistent. I always wonder what would have happened to Fitzroy had Hecron bought the club in October 1986 for their offer of $2.6 million. The then VFL wanted a $4 million licence fee to be paid by Hecron and the deal fell through.

 

[The_Wookie]

I don't think relocating Fitzroy or any other Victorian club would have generated money for the VFL-AFL in the short term. Quite apart from the fact that VFL-AFL can't relocate clubs at will, relocating existing clubs was likely to cost them money in setting up the club in a new city etc. etc, unless lucrative deals could have been negotiated with government where the infrastructure already existed or was available. (e.g Fitzroy to Canberra)

All very true. It didnt stop it being a major fear in WA though, and was part of the reason they came to the VFL table so quickly and easily. I was thinking of the offers/plans that had been presented for Fitzroy in Brisbane, Canberra and Sydney early on - not forcible relocation.

Issuing private licences would have been more successful in generating money short term. However private licences have the danger of owners closing down or rebranding the club at whim, alienating supporters. In my view one of the strengths of the VFL-AFL over the past hundred years is that there has always been a core of competing clubs that have had steady brands, particularly in Victoria. Certainly there have been additions and changes to a number of clubs, but the core has been consistent. I always wonder what would have happened to Fitzroy had Hecron bought the club in October 1986 for their offer of $2.6 million. The then VFL wanted a $4 million licence fee to be paid by Hecron and the deal fell through.

Agree with you that there were dangers to private licenses, but these dangers werent really thought out in 1986 when the West coast (The WAFL sub license was sold to IPL), Brisbane (Cronin, Skase) and Swans (Edelston) licenses were held privately. In addition, as you note, Hecron could have bought the Lions license in 1986 for the same 4 million fee that every one else was paying. Its not inconcievable that the VFL might have sold a private license to an SA consortium if the SANFL hadnt come to the table. (Port had negotiated almost a massively reduced license fee in 1990, but the Crows ended up paying the uaul 4 million)

I think the only things that stopped that happening were the SANFL making enough noise to keep the AFL convinced they were going to come sooner rather than later, and from 1989 on the perils of private licenses became very real in the VFL (Brisbane, Sydney and IPL had all gone or were going bust).

Also 100% agree that one of the strengths of the VFL is the core of competing clubs. To have only one club completely disappear from the competition - and that club is still competing in the VAFA (University), and another merged (with the original entity still in the VAFA (Fitzroy)) over 120 years isnt bad going at all.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

but WA & SA clubs wanted in, so there was no real prospect of being without WA and SA for long ... WAFL/SANFL's hands were in large part forced (most clearly in SA's case with Port trying to jump ship, but WAFL clubs had applied to shift).

Of course they wanted in, all WAFL and SANFL clubs would of wanted in and felt a right to be in.
My point was WA and SA should of held out for a few years together and demanded a national body run any expansion comp, demand that their will be a fully broadcast and promoted second tier comp with a possible pathway to the AFL.
These things were not thought of in WA and SA, the VFL were the only ones who could see the big picture and WA and SA shat themselves and just jumped on board all for a measly few dollars for their club vote.
I am not cracking the Vics Telsor, I am actually admiring them. I am cracking the people running WA football at the time who could not see past their nose and never once thought about the consequences to their clubs in the WAFL. But 1986 is a long time ago now, we have two franchises here and 8 great WAFL clubs on their knees. Nothing will change that now.

 

[telsor]

Of course they wanted in, all WAFL and SANFL clubs would of wanted in and felt a right to be in.
My point was WA and SA should of held out for a few years together and demanded a national body run any expansion comp, demand that their will be a fully broadcast and promoted second tier comp with a possible pathway to the AFL.
These things were not thought of in WA and SA, the VFL were the only ones who could see the big picture and WA and SA shat themselves and just jumped on board all for a measly few dollars for their club vote.
I am not cracking the Vics Telsor, I am actually admiring them. I am cracking the people running WA football at the time who could not see past their nose and never once thought about the consequences to their clubs in the WAFL. But 1986 is a long time ago now, we have two franchises here and 8 great WAFL clubs on their knees. Nothing will change that now.

I was referring more to the politics beforehand...The WAFL/SANFL being 'forced' to do what the VFL wanted because clubs were going to jump anyway. Case in point being how the SANFL & clubs 'agreed' to ignore the VFL's attempts to include SA in it's expansion, only to have Port go behind their backs and try to jump ship leaving the SANFL with very few bargaining chips. WAFL could have tried the same, but considering their clubs had already tried to join the VFL (was it East Perth?) they probably had little confidence that a united front would hold up very long....If single states/leagues couldn't work together on this, then the chances of SA & WA doing so together were even slimmer.

What you suggest might have been more likely to provide a better result, but it was always unlikely to happen.

My concern with the idea of a brokered national league however is that the deal struck may well have been too rigid with fixed numbers of teams from each state (and probably only including the 3 'big' states who struck the deal) and the idea you suggest of 'possible pathway' would very very difficult in practice...If you're looking promotion/relegation, then either the standard of the top league would be relatively low, or the teams being promoted would be slaughtered (with the gap like that between AFL teams and state league teams now). It would also make things like the draft and salary cap next to impossible and probably led to an EPL type situation with the Vic clubs on top (they might have been 'broke', but they still had much bigger budgets that clubs in other leagues).


I hear what you're saying about the WAFL clubs, but they're still playing in the second or third best league (SANFL being about the same level it seems) in the country, just as they were back then. True, the gap has widened significantly, but they're still the same clubs in the same league and probably play at a higher standard than they did 30 years ago (better coaching & development, brought on in no small part by the AFL). The problem is more one of perception and alternatives and however a national league formed (or didn't), that was always going to happen (even if there was no national league, the VFL was getting more and more TV time in other states even then so it would have been like supporting the A-league vs seeing the EPL on TV). As a positive, at least the WAFL is (mostly) still a genuine competition...Our 'state league', the VFL is little more than the AFL-Vic reserves has most of the teams less interested in winning than development.

I suppose what I'm saying is that I don't think there was a 'great' option, and while the one we got certainly wasn't the best (least worst?), I'm not sure it was that it was that much worse than the alternatives would have been. Whichever way it happened, there was going to be a lot of pain.