Politics Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement

[Demonic Ascent]

One wonders how it is you actually come to that conclusion. Education? Press? Personal circumstance?

Reality. Evidence. Research. Cognitive thought.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

by keeping economic "protections", all you're doing is forcing consumers to pay more. every $1 spent on these "protections" is a $1 that someone can't spend elsewhere in an economy, at businesses that do provide efficient products or services. why should the consumer be forced into paying higher prices to subsidise inefficient/uncompetitive local sectors?

that's not even touching on the economic "protections" of other nations which concurrently punish our exporters; this always gets implicitly ignored in these conversations for some reason, as if local businesses that export are less important than those that sell closer to home.

It's not much use removing economic protections to make products cheaper if it means entire industries are flushed down the toilet. Not much use having cheaper imported cars for the person who lost their job at Ford or Holden. I don't see how that is of benefit to the economy, they don't have the extra dollar to spend in the first place let alone elsewhere.

sorry, but this is demonstrably untrue. free trade and global capital movements have pulled millions out of poverty and there is an explosion in the middle class in countries like india or china. this fact is actually implicit to your protectionist position (jobs head overseas for cheap labour etc)- are we to believe these jobs lost locally aren't of benefit to those offshore that "take" them? of course not.
...
it isn't free trade agreements that are gutting local businesses- it's the sum total impacts of consumer choices. not much you can do about that in 2015.

Fair point about the exploding middle classes in China and India however there are other countries which haven't fared quite so well.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

so copy something that is not allowed to be copied is illegal to be copied? who could believe that to be the case under "copyright" laws?

especially given someone must have taken active steps to circumvent the digital protections to copy the data

As far as I'm aware, copyright infringements only occur when someone distributes copyrighted material, not when they obtain it. I could be wrong though.

 

[Long Live HFC]

It's not much use removing economic protections to make products cheaper if it means entire industries are flushed down the toilet. Not much use having cheaper imported cars for the person who lost their job at Ford or Holden. I don't see how that is of benefit to the economy, they don't have the extra dollar to spend in the first place let alone elsewhere.

yeah, I agree (I might be favour free trade per se but I realise there will always be winners and losers). in this example the worker at ford/holden is the loser, but it's everyone else that wanted to buy a car that has been the winner.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

We are already competing with other nations and many of which don't have the "things we enjoy here is Australia" but some how we continue to forge ahead. The gap between us and them though continues to close and as they emerge from poverty, they to will start to introduce the types of "standards, rights and responsibilities" we have enjoyed for a long time.

Forging ahead? You haven't been paying attention to the state of affairs in the last 5 or so years?

We are already in competition with them and as our economic protections are further eroded (by treaties such as the TPP) our ability to compete will be in further decline. You've got to remember all the rights people enjoy have been hard worked and fought for over decades/centuries. They weren't handed out by the grace of those at the top. Things like minimum wage, 38 hour week, 5 day week, penalty rates, OH&S, workers comp etc etc will be eroded as people here are unable to compete with those overseas who have never had those rights. Will people starve? Or will they accept jobs with reduced protections just to feed their families? Workers of the world uniting may sound good in theory but good luck ever getting it to happen.

Your example of your own business and how it operates is great however I would hazard a guess that not all businesses have the same morals/ethics as you have demonstrated. Sweat shops and child labour are alive and well and wherever they are it is because a business has elected to exploit those conditions.

The question is, how do individuals in their capacity of the electorate respond to this challenge. Do they see globalisation only for the challenges or do they see it as the only solution to ending poverty, war and racism?

Yes, globalisation is a panacea to all humanity's ills. Pretty sure the main reason for bombing the s**t out of the middle east since 2003 was to open up the markets. That's worked well, I'm sure those hundreds of thousands who have been decimated appreciate our desire to end poverty, war and racism.

 

[Power Raid]

Forging ahead? You haven't been paying attention to the state of affairs in the last 5 or so years?

We are already in competition with them and as our economic protections are further eroded (by treaties such as the TPP) our ability to compete will be in further decline. You've got to remember all the rights people enjoy have been hard worked and fought for over decades/centuries. They weren't handed out by the grace of those at the top. Things like minimum wage, 38 hour week, 5 day week, penalty rates, OH&S, workers comp etc etc will be eroded as people here are unable to compete with those overseas who have never had those rights. Will people starve? Or will they accept jobs with reduced protections just to feed their families? Workers of the world uniting may sound good in theory but good luck ever getting it to happen.

Your example of your own business and how it operates is great however I would hazard a guess that not all businesses have the same morals/ethics as you have demonstrated. Sweat shops and child labour are alive and well and wherever they are it is because a business has elected to exploit those conditions.



Yes, globalisation is a panacea to all humanity's ills. Pretty sure the main reason for bombing the s**t out of the middle east since 2003 was to open up the markets. That's worked well, I'm sure those hundreds of thousands who have been decimated appreciate our desire to end poverty, war and racism.

I'm suggesting we don't have challenges ahead. I'm just suggesting the the TPP is not the issue.

We should focus on international efforts to introduce the things we worked so hard to achieve here in the Western World. oh, and OH&S, 38 hour working week etc were all paid for by the wealth created from successful investments and achievements by individuals, government and business.

Then as the wealth distributes you end up with stable economies with a broad industry base. but it starts with investment and that starts with low sovereign risk and strong property laws. So let's start at the beginning and keep focus on the destination; that's how journeys work.

 

[Power Raid]

As far as I'm aware, copyright infringements only occur when someone distributes copyrighted material, not when they obtain it. I could be wrong though.

even if you buy a CD, you can not copy it onto your computer let alone distribute it. If I recall correctly TiVo required a law change to work as it was illegal to tape a tv program.

 

[medusala]

Reality. Evidence. Research. Cognitive thought.

Lol, as if its actually a credible notion that cutting taxes for the rich doesn't create investment and economic growth.

You may as well argue the laffer curve doesn't exist.

Keep up the humour comrade

even if you buy a CD, you can not copy it onto your computer let alone distribute it. If I recall correctly TiVo required a law change to work as it was illegal to tape a tv program.

Isnt there a notion of reasonable usage? Or maybe that's just a UK thing?

http://www.whathifi.com/news/cd-and-dvd-copying-to-be-made-legal-june-1st-uk

Copying of CDs, DVDs and Blu-rays for personal use will become legal in the UK from June 1st. The UK Government has issued a guide to the change in the copyright law which came about as a result of the Hargreaves Review in 2011.

Under the new law, it will become perfectly legal to make backup copies of CDs and films you own for your own personal use.

"Copyright law is being changed to allow you to make personal copies of media you have bought, for private purposes such as format shifting or backup," explains the UK's Intellectual Property Office (IPO). "The changes will mean you will be able to copy an album, film or book you have purchased for one device onto another without infringing copyright."

 

[Power Raid]

Lol, as if its actually a credible notion that cutting taxes for the rich doesn't create investment and economic growth.

You may as well argue the laffer curve doesn't exist.

Keep up the humour comrade



Isnt there a notion of reasonable usage? Or maybe that's just a UK thing?

http://www.whathifi.com/news/cd-and-dvd-copying-to-be-made-legal-june-1st-uk

Copying of CDs, DVDs and Blu-rays for personal use will become legal in the UK from June 1st. The UK Government has issued a guide to the change in the copyright law which came about as a result of the Hargreaves Review in 2011.

Under the new law, it will become perfectly legal to make backup copies of CDs and films you own for your own personal use.

"Copyright law is being changed to allow you to make personal copies of media you have bought, for private purposes such as format shifting or backup," explains the UK's Intellectual Property Office (IPO). "The changes will mean you will be able to copy an album, film or book you have purchased for one device onto another without infringing copyright."

The reasonable usage was what I think made Tivo legal

the reality is, we both know no one is going to kick down your door and complete a review for something minor or reasonable. ie buy something and copy it.

but download heaps of s**t and pay for nothing......you're asking for trouble

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Lol, as if its actually a credible notion that cutting taxes for the rich doesn't create investment and economic growth.

Lol, as if its actually a credible notion that neo-liberal economics has led to a greater spread of wealth rather than concentrating it at the top of the pyramid.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

The reasonable usage was what I think made Tivo legal

the reality is, we both know no one is going to kick down your door and complete a review for something minor or reasonable. ie buy something and copy it.

but download heaps of s**t and pay for nothing......you're asking for trouble

No, downloading something is not illegal. Uploading something is illegal as it is distributing copyrighted material. Using a platform like bit torrent means anyone who downloads automatically uploads even if it is only a fraction of the copyrighted material. But if I were to download something direct from a website I would not be infringing any copyright laws; the person hosting the website would be though.

 

[Power Raid]

No, downloading something is not illegal. Uploading something is illegal as it is distributing copyrighted material. Using a platform like bit torrent means anyone who downloads automatically uploads even if it is only a fraction of the copyrighted material. But if I were to download something direct from a website I would not be infringing any copyright laws; the person hosting the website would be though.

Nup

 

[Play by Numbers]

so copy something that is not allowed to be copied is illegal to be copied? who could believe that to be the case under "copyright" laws?

especially given someone must have taken active steps to circumvent the digital protections to copy the data

I see you have no concept of proportionality.

Setting up an invasive, taxpayer funded surveilance and enforcement regime, with undemocratic powers and disproportionate punishments is hardly proportional.

 

[Power Raid]

I see you have no concept of proportionality.

Setting up an invasive, taxpayer funded surveilance and enforcement regime, with undemocratic powers and disproportionate punishments is hardly proportional.

stop whinging........the horse bolted on this long before the TPP

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca1968133/
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html

just pay for stuff and you will be fine

 

[Play by Numbers]

stop whinging........the horse bolted on this long before the TPP

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca1968133/
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html

just pay for stuff and you will be fine

I pay for my content but I will not stop whinging.

You endorse police state tactics, for previously non criminal behavior. That is inexcusable.

 

[Power Raid]

I pay for my content but I will not stop whinging.

You endorse police state tactics, for previously non criminal behavior. That is inexcusable.

previously?.........1968

and god knows what legislation preceding that

 

[Power Raid]

I pay for my content but I will not stop whinging.

You endorse police state tactics, for previously non criminal behavior. That is inexcusable.

oh and I wasn't aware it was "criminal". Do you have a link?

I always thought the remedies were civil. Perhaps I'm wrong.

 

[Play by Numbers]

previously?.........1968

and god knows what legislation preceding that

Also, why should taxpayers have to give up freedoms or have to slog out to protect the profits of companies that don't pay tax, or price gouge Australian consumers.

If we have universality for rights regimes, then there should be common pricing and a lone region for digital goods.

 

[Power Raid]

Also, why should taxpayers have to give up freedoms or have to slog out to protect the profits of companies that don't pay tax, or price gouge Australian consumers.

If we have universality for rights regimes, then there should be common pricing and a lone region for digital goods.

all good points and need to be addressed as there own issues

 

[Long Live HFC]

So, the text is out. haven't had much time to look at it yet. anyone got some choice paragraphs they'd like to draw to our attention?

http://tpp.mfat.govt.nz/text

 

[Gough]

I'm just going to assume that given it's the same bunch of people who brought us the Budgets of 2014, and 2015 that signed this agreement, it's not going to help anyone but the transnats.

 

[Power Raid]

what's you thoughts on the text?

 

[CbayT]

No, downloading something is not illegal. Uploading something is illegal as it is distributing copyrighted material. Using a platform like bit torrent means anyone who downloads automatically uploads even if it is only a fraction of the copyrighted material. But if I were to download something direct from a website I would not be infringing any copyright laws; the person hosting the website would be though.

That's Australian law, other jurisdictions that is not the case. One of the suggested outcomes of the TPP was Australian law would have to change to comply. I haven't been bothered to check if that's the case.

 

[Lebbo73]

I'm just going to assume that given it's the same bunch of people who brought us the Budgets of 2014, and 2015 that signed this agreement, it's not going to help anyone but the transnats.

Labor/Libs, they are one and the same when it comes to the TPP.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Nup

You're wrong, go and check the relevant legislation.