UEFA Champions League R16

[Zidane98]

Not everyone can be knocked out of Europe twice.

No they can't. But it does take a special team to win the second leg away of a Champions League knockout tie 2-0 twice and be eliminated both times

 

[Cruyff14]

Crying from laughter at your amusing opinions yeah.

You read any of the bullshit you produce after hitting post?

 

[moomba]

Seen at the Nou Camp this week

There are players that need penalties to feel like God. There are others that need penalties to feel human.

 

[jod23]

You read any of the bullshit you produce after hitting post?

Naaaw. I think I hit a sore spot. Calm down mate. Everything is going to be ok.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

interesting article on messi vs maradona from 2012.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/the-best-ever-messi-or-maradona-7546060.html

 

[Magma]

and then he has gone on the break practically every record set in front of him. easy to forget he's 27.

 

[gaelictiogar]

gaelictiogar you speak so much sense.

Where were you in the All Time teams thread where the myth of players past and the mystery and romanticism of foreign players instantly turned Real Madrid, Ajax, Barca, Inter, Juve, Milan etc all time teams to be far better than United's or Liverpool's.

You touch on several issues.

1, Exoticism. The samba dancing Brazilians like Ronaldinho, colourful Oranje Dutch like Cruyff, Romantic doomed Irish Like Georgie Best simply must be better than the dull old English pro. Look at Jimmy Greaves. Possibly the finest post war goalscorer the global game has seen......but never mentioned. Boring old Englishman you see. This is why the Liverpool of the 1970s are undervalued.

2. Sepia tinted past.....They were giants then and players are pygmies now.

3. The ingrained soccer fans distaste for stats. EG cricketers have no problem pointing to Bradman's batting average but soccer fans hate stats....hence EG the blind refusal to accept what the dribbling stats tell us about Messi compared to other dribblers.

4. unawareness of how the impact of colour TV impacted on perception. Ask neutrals ot tell you who the greatest teams were and they will often say Brazil 1970 and Holland 1974. The first two colour world Cups.

So many opinions are reflections of broader cultural prejudice and perception.

 

[LeoMessi]

 

[Cruyff14]

Naaaw. I think I hit a sore spot. Calm down mate. Everything is going to be ok.

Not at all.

But you're obviously discontent about Liverpool not being rated in regards to all time lineups bringing it up here again.

You touch on several issues.

1, Exoticism. The samba dancing Brazilians like Ronaldinho, colourful Oranje Dutch like Cruyff, Romantic doomed Irish Like Georgie Best simply must be better than the dull old English pro. Look at Jimmy Greaves. Possibly the finest post war goalscorer the global game has seen......but never mentioned. Boring old Englishman you see. This is why the Liverpool of the 1970s are undervalued.

2. Sepia tinted past.....They were giants then and players are pygmies now.

3. The ingrained soccer fans distaste for stats. EG cricketers have no problem pointing to Bradman's batting average but soccer fans hate stats....hence EG the blind refusal to accept what the dribbling stats tell us about Messi compared to other dribblers.

4. unawareness of how the impact of colour TV impacted on perception. Ask neutrals ot tell you who the greatest teams were and they will often say Brazil 1970 and Holland 1974. The first two colour world Cups.

So many opinions are reflections of broader cultural prejudice and perception.

Did you watch this?

Nowhere near as open and shut as you state. Ronaldo burnt guys for fun without even trying.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Not at all.

But you're obviously discontent about Liverpool not being rated in regards to all time lineups bringing it up here again.


Did you watch this?

Nowhere near as open and shut as you state. Ronaldo burnt guys for fun without even trying.

I rate Real Ronaldo very highly.

My view - which of course is only an opinion - is that Ronaldo is behind only Messi Cruyff and a fit and slim maradona in terms of pure ability allied to consistent productivity. As a dribbler he is certainly miles ahead of his currently famous namesake.

 

[Cruyff14]

Ronaldo's pace was frightening. Once he turned on the gas, defender's never had a chance.

He consistently made defenders look like dummies for fun without even trying.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Ronaldo's pace was frightening. Once he turned on the gas, defender's never had a chance.

He consistently made defenders look like dummies for fun without even trying.

Yes. In fact I think he is hugely under rated. When fit his great power and physical strength allied to his dribblers arts and instincts were almost unmanageable. I've always loved Cruyff. The intelligence, the graceful sinuous lines he ran, the pace and control. I've loved Best with his dancers grace and the way he always looked just on the verge of losing control but so often did not and of course I love Messi with his incredible control at pace allied to his goat like balance but Ronaldo had what none of those three had....power as well as guile.

To be frank I rate Messi the highest but in the post Cruyff era - the last 40 years - and nothwithstanding the affection so many have for Maradona I rate Real Ronaldo behind only Messi given that Maradona despite his immense gifts was totally one footed and given to cheating. If Cristiano had even 80% of his namesakes ability there would be a genuine rival for Messi today.

 

[Cruyff14]

Didn't matter if Diego was one footed, didn't even need the right. Silly to discredit him for that reason.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Didn't matter if Diego was one footed, didn't even need the right. Silly to discredit him for that reason.

I'm not discrediting him. I'm simply observing that his weaker foot ability was substantially inferior to the like of Cruyff, Best and Messi. He was literally totally one footed.

George Best was right footed, heavily right footed but I have read him saying that as a child he used to play games in which he only used his left in order to develop that ability. Many of his greatest goals were left footed. Defenders always aware that he had the left in his armoury. A surprisingly large percentage of messi's goals are right footed despite his left footedness. Some ability with the weaker foot is a huge help.

Watch Maradona. He literally had to run round his weaker right. This is not to discredit. It is to observe a factual inadequacy when we compare him to his peers among the dribbling elite.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

You touch on several issues.

1, Exoticism. The samba dancing Brazilians like Ronaldinho, colourful Oranje Dutch like Cruyff, Romantic doomed Irish Like Georgie Best simply must be better than the dull old English pro. Look at Jimmy Greaves. Possibly the finest post war goalscorer the global game has seen......but never mentioned. Boring old Englishman you see. This is why the Liverpool of the 1970s are undervalued.

2. Sepia tinted past.....They were giants then and players are pygmies now.

3. The ingrained soccer fans distaste for stats. EG cricketers have no problem pointing to Bradman's batting average but soccer fans hate stats....hence EG the blind refusal to accept what the dribbling stats tell us about Messi compared to other dribblers.

4. unawareness of how the impact of colour TV impacted on perception. Ask neutrals ot tell you who the greatest teams were and they will often say Brazil 1970 and Holland 1974. The first two colour world Cups.

So many opinions are reflections of broader cultural prejudice and perception.

Stats for bowling and batting averages have been recorded for over 100 years. Dribbling stats haven't.

 

[Greendogg5]

I rate Real Ronaldo very highly.

My view - which of course is only an opinion - is that Ronaldo is behind only Messi Cruyff and a fit and slim maradona in terms of pure ability allied to consistent productivity. As a dribbler he is certainly miles ahead of his currently famous namesake.

I rate real ronaldo in his prime as the best (i have seen). Messi is ridiculous though

 

[Greendogg5]

Yes. In fact I think he is hugely under rated. When fit his great power and physical strength allied to his dribblers arts and instincts were almost unmanageable. I've always loved Cruyff. The intelligence, the graceful sinuous lines he ran, the pace and control. I've loved Best with his dancers grace and the way he always looked just on the verge of losing control but so often did not and of course I love Messi with his incredible control at pace allied to his goat like balance but Ronaldo had what none of those three had....power as well as guile.

To be frank I rate Messi the highest but in the post Cruyff era - the last 40 years - and nothwithstanding the affection so many have for Maradona I rate Real Ronaldo behind only Messi given that Maradona despite his immense gifts was totally one footed and given to cheating. If Cristiano had even 80% of his namesakes ability there would be a genuine rival for Messi today.

I like where you are coming from! this man speaks the truth

 

[Cruyff14]

Yeah but it's not like Maradona being entirely left footed affected his career at all.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Stats for bowling and batting averages have been recorded for over 100 years. Dribbling stats haven't.

What you say is true Bojan but in response to things like Moneyball and the greater sensitivity to what factors really matter we find soccer in the past 15 to 20 years becoming much more stat oriented. We now know that CR7 scores 17% of his shots compared to Messi's 24%. we know that Balotelli almost literally never assists a goal and that Pirlo has long term efficiency stats superior to either Xavi or Iniesta. We now have objective stats on which to make judgment. we know who makes the most successful key passes, who dribbles best, who is fouled most, who loses control most. Sites like whoscored and organisations like OPTAwith their efficiency algorithms revolutionise player comparison.

I acknowledge a huge romantic resistence to this but you can bet your bottom dollar that in buying players clubs have a real interest in these stats.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

What you say is true Bojan but in response to things like Moneyball and the greater sensitivity to what factors really matter we find soccer in the past 15 to 20 years becoming much more stat oriented. We now know that CR7 scores 17% of his shots compared to Messi's 24%. we know that Balotelli almost literally never assists a goal and that Pirlo has long term efficiency stats superior to either Xavi or Iniesta. We now have objective stats on which to make judgment. we know who makes the most successful key passes, who dribbles best, who is fouled most, who loses control most. Sites like whoscored and organisations like OPTAwith their efficiency algorithms revolutionise player comparison.

I acknowledge a huge romantic resistence to this but you can bet your bottom dollar that in buying players clubs have a real interest in these stats.

I acknowledge that the use of stats is more prevalent now than ever. However, comparing current players stats to players in different era's where comprehensive statistics were not recorded and then using those same stats to justify an opinion seems silly to me. I don't ignore statistics, far from it. I believe stats have there place and should be used in conjunction with the eye test. E.g. Ander Herrera had 5 goals and 5 assists from his first 6 games. He performed well but nobody was saying he's the best or most efficient midfielder in the league.

Imo, using dribbling stats correctly would lead to the conclusion that Messi is the best/most efficient dribbler since dribbling statistics were recorded.

 

[gaelictiogar]

I acknowledge that the use of stats is more prevalent now than ever. However, comparing current players stats to players in different era's where comprehensive statistics were not recorded and then using those same stats to justify an opinion seems silly to me. I don't ignore statistics, far from it. I believe stats have there place and should be used in conjunction with the eye test. E.g. Ander Herrera had 5 goals and 5 assists from his first 6 games. He performed well but nobody was saying he's the best or most efficient midfielder in the league.

Imo, using dribbling stats correctly would lead to the conclusion that Messi is the best/most efficient dribbler since dribbling statistics were recorded.

I agree with what you say.

Clearly a 6 game period would be far to short to make a judgment. Much longer is needed.

Moneyball was when you think about it arguably the most influential book pro sport has ever seen. It acted as a huge push to get stat keeping up to scratch. Watch de Bruyne get a huge transfer this year based on his amazing whoscored rating.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

I agree with what you say.

Clearly a 6 game period would be far to short to make a judgment. Much longer is needed.

Moneyball was when you think about it arguably the most influential book pro sort has ever seen. It acted as a huge push to get stat keeping up to scratch.

Mate, have a look into the sloane conference in the US. It started before the red sox came up with moneyball. It's effectively stats nerds from pro sports teams around the world debating how relevant statistical analysis effects the relevant sports, drafting, tactics, roster building, etc. Was started by Mark Cuban and a few others. I think grantland did a podcast this year on it. You'll love it.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Mate, have a look into the sloane conference in the US. It started before the red sox came up with moneyball. It's effectively stats nerds from pro sports teams around the world debating how relevant statistical analysis effects the relevant sports, drafting, tactics, roster building, etc. Was started by Mark Cuban and a few others. I think grantland did a podcast this year on it. You'll love it.

Thanks.

returning the favour if you are really interested in player comparison Benjamin Morris at fivethirtyeight.com has some fascinating stuff comparing Messi, Pele and Maradona, The stuff is great because it involves touch by touch analysis of world Cup finals games. All those played by maradona and messi and 8 played by Pele. Fascinating. Have a look. Just google it.

He aso has a detailed messi Ronaldo comparison. Google "messi is impossible" for that . Cheers.

 

[Cruyff14]

I think Zidane and Baggio are two others who need to be considered also.

 

[Cruyff14]

I think Zidane and Baggio are two others who need to be considered also.

gaelictiogar thoughts?