UFC 193 - Fight Week!

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phantom13 said:
You go into the fight being 12-0, the gameplan you have used in every other fight has buried every other opponent. Yeh her gameplan needs tweaking but there was no way to know that before the fight. All im saying is armchair experts can easily say that after the fight.
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Very fair call. I am seeing everywhere "I always said Holly was guaranteed to win this". Don't recall seeing that once though. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
 
Also people hanging s**t on Edmond, what the hell else was he meant to say, not like Ronda has a plan B. I think she needs to change camps and im not convinced he is a great coach but honestly what was he supposed to say to her given we can all agree she had no other options im not sure what people wanted him to do.
 
Quivorir said:
Very fair call. I am seeing everywhere "I always said Holly was guaranteed to win this". Don't recall seeing that once though. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
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Funilly enough i suggested Holm could knock Ronda out with well timed counters in another thread but even i didn' think it was going to actually happen.
 

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Some here may have already heard or read Jack Slack's Killing the King series. Back in July he finally released Killing the Queen, a great article focusing on Ronda and detailing her exploitable habits.

http://fightland.vice.com/blog/killing-the-queen-ronda-rousey

As you will see with his follow-up article which breaks down the fight fantastically and compares it to his original theories he was almost spot on with his analysis. Pretty impressive.

http://fightland.vice.com/blog/how-holly-holm-killed-queen-ronda-rousey
 
phantom13 said:
Also people hanging s**t on Edmond, what the hell else was he meant to say, not like Ronda has a plan B. I think she needs to change camps and im not convinced he is a great coach but honestly what was he supposed to say to her given we can all agree she had no other options im not sure what people wanted him to do.
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Not having a plan B is Edmond's fault. It's also his fault that plan A isn't more sophisticated. Running straight in on opponents had worked so far, but he should have developed a style that didn't require an opponent to offer virtually no resistance.

He should have offered her some technical advice on how to pressure Holm effectively instead of telling her that she's doing fine. It seems like he hasn't given her this advice in the gym. That makes it even worse.
 
BradWCE said:
Not having a plan B is Edmond's fault. It's also his fault that plan A isn't more sophisticated. Running straight in on opponents had worked so far, but he should have developed a style that didn't require an opponent to offer virtually no resistance.

He should have offered her some technical advice on how to pressure Holm effectively instead of telling her that she's doing fine. It seems like he hasn't given her this advice in the gym. That makes it even worse.
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I get what you're saying but if plan A has been so effective and your fighter doesn't want plan B you're not going to have it are you? I'm not defending his coaching ability per se but people saying he should have given her different advice I'm not sure what he could say? She wasn't even breaking even in any department, the preparation sits between him and her but the in fight stuff is on the fighter. Unless they did have a back up plan he just ignored but I sincerely doubt that.
 
phantom13 said:
Also people hanging s**t on Edmond, what the hell else was he meant to say, not like Ronda has a plan B. I think she needs to change camps and im not convinced he is a great coach but honestly what was he supposed to say to her given we can all agree she had no other options im not sure what people wanted him to do.
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If he was insistent that she stayed with the same game plan, maybe encouraging some head movement would have been a good idea.

phantom13 said:
I get what you're saying but if plan A has been so effective and your fighter doesn't want plan B you're not going to have it are you?
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Of course you are, what other fighter wouldn't have a plan B? Reeks of hubris to me.
 
Guy Threepwood said:
Of course you are, what other fighter wouldn't have a plan B? Reeks of hubris to me.
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Absolutely is smacks of arrogance but that's not all on him, does anyone really think Ronda would have responded well to "you've won every fight doing this but this time we're gonna do something totally different". Also head movement isn't something you can just magically teach during a 30 second break.

The game plan was wrong and that's on him, also I don't think he is the right guy or Glendale is the right camp for her but nothing he was going to say or do in that break would have made a lick of difference short of "you can't win this fight so run the f**k away from her and hope you get the champion points decision".
 
phantom13 said:
Absolutely is smacks of arrogance but that's not all on him, does anyone really think Ronda would have responded well to "you've won every fight doing this but this time we're gonna do something totally different". Also head movement isn't something you can just magically teach during a 30 second break.

The game plan was wrong and that's on him, also I don't think he is the right guy or Glendale is the right camp for her but nothing he was going to say or do in that break would have made a lick of difference short of "you can't win this fight so run the f**k away from her and hope you get the champion points decision".
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Why are you suggesting that something like head movement that every striking coach would teach is something so incredibly foreign to Ronda? She's been doing MMA for what, 5 years now? It's not like she was fresh out of the Olympics and throwing strikes for the first time in her life. It was a throw away line on my behalf, but anything other than telling her what a good job she was doing would have been preferable.

To be fair, we don't know if her being told to change something up or try something different would have made a difference in the fight because it didn't happen.
 
http://www.news.com.au/sport/ronda-...z/news-story/5ab0e4d97739516c1d72999e76fbbbdb

But according to former WWE superstar and two-time world heavyweight champion turned podcaster Taz, the loss to Holm was what they call in the wrestling biz ‘a work’. In layman’s terms, Taz claimed Rousey deliberately lost to Holm and it was all part of a strategic plan, working in with Ronda’s increasingly packed career schedule.

“The first thing that jumped out at me was, OK: I think the finish of the fight might have been rigged,” Taz said on his podcast, The Taz Show.
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Taz sounds like a smart dude.........
 
I think both of you are making some really good points.

Edmond having good advice to give her between rounds relies on him having given her this sort of advice at an earlier time in her career to learn it. So, I can see where phantom's coming from. You can say that the advice between rounds wasn't the problem, it's the lack of good instruction in training over the years. The lack of solid advice after round 1 arises because of the lack of advice in training and from this you can come to the conclusion that the advice he gave her in between rounds isn't the problem. I understand phantom's point and think it's a good one. It also makes Edmond look even worse than if it was just bad advice in between rounds.

I think the problems with Rousey's plan A are more worth talking about than her having no plan B. Holm and Rousey are both still relatively new to MMA and have both stuck to one plan in their careers. Holm fought better than she ever has before in MMA, but she still fought very much the same way that she has since she started. It's tough to say how Rousey's performance compares to all her other fights, but she certainly attempted to fight the same way as she usually does.

All fighters who become champion and stay champion for a long time improve their game to stay there. They don't just say this has worked in every other fight, so I'm going to keep doing it until it fails. They continue to improve their entries into the clinch in case the other fight isn't as easy to get out of there as past opponents.
 

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Found that breakdown of the Rousey/Holm fight by Zahabi on Reddit. Password: r/mma



Really good breakdown. Do yourself a favour and watch it.

I've come across some other 'analysis' that's a lot less worthwhile. Someone's saying that Holm has clearly abused steroids based on a picture of her crotch in one of her first two UFC weigh-ins. Interestingly I hadn't heard anything like this until she won the title. The same thing happened when RDA won the title. Everyone all of a sudden knew he was on steroids. While I'm at it, there's people talking about Rousey not being on steroids any more as well. It seems pretty clear that lots of MMA fighters have used or are still using PEDs, but to single any fighter out based on nothing factual is pointless.

Taz does seem pretty smart. Saying something as stupid as this has got him a lot more attention than he would have been getting.
 
BradWCE said:
Watched a really good breakdown of the Rousey/Holm fight by Firas Zahabi. Went to look for it so I could post it here and unfortunately it's been taken down because of a copyright claim by the UFC. That sucks.
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Maybe UFC got a bit salty they lost their cash cow
 
BradWCE said:
I think both of you are making some really good points.

Edmond having good advice to give her between rounds relies on him having given her this sort of advice at an earlier time in her career to learn it. So, I can see where phantom's coming from. You can say that the advice between rounds wasn't the problem, it's the lack of good instruction in training over the years. The lack of solid advice after round 1 arises because of the lack of advice in training and from this you can come to the conclusion that the advice he gave her in between rounds isn't the problem. I understand phantom's point and think it's a good one. It also makes Edmond look even worse than if it was just bad advice in between rounds.

I think the problems with Rousey's plan A are more worth talking about than her having no plan B. Holm and Rousey are both still relatively new to MMA and have both stuck to one plan in their careers. Holm fought better than she ever has before in MMA, but she still fought very much the same way that she has since she started. It's tough to say how Rousey's performance compares to all her other fights, but she certainly attempted to fight the same way as she usually does.

All fighters who become champion and stay champion for a long time improve their game to stay there. They don't just say this has worked in every other fight, so I'm going to keep doing it until it fails. They continue to improve their entries into the clinch in case the other fight isn't as easy to get out of there as past opponents.
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You have articulated my main point much better than i was. I'm not suggesting for a second Edmond isn't blameless and i have reiterated i think Rousey NEEDS to change camps but Ronda clearly doesn't have any head movement, weve never seen her doing anything resembling defense, footwork or head movement so Edmond saying any of that wouldnt have helped. Also you are quite right champs do need to continously improve and get new tools (look at Barao v TJ) but Rondas "run at my opponent with wild punches, eat a few shots, clinch, throw and win the belt" has not just worked but f**king destroyed all her opponents thus far so why the hell would she have a plan B, agreeing that in hindsight (and for a good coach foresight) and removing hubris she should have.
 
How does everyone think Holm matches up with others near the top of the division? I've been thinking about it and I wouldn't be that surprised to see her lose to Tate or Nunes or even Zingano. It's weird since everyone thought Rousey would win, but now after the fight it looks like Holm matches up perfectly with Rousey and not as well with others.

Holm has said the rematch makes sense next and why wouldn't she? It's a good stylistic match-up for her and it'll make her the most money.
 
I still think Tate is the 2nd best in the division with Rousey being the best. Holm is the only one that can beat Rousey, because of style matchup, but I think Tate and a few others beat Holm.
 
Quivorir said:
I still think Tate is the 2nd best in the division with Rousey being the best. Holm is the only one that can beat Rousey, because of style matchup, but I think Tate and a few others beat Holm.
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Well, if that's the case then, Holm and Tate would be an interesting fight.
 
I think having tested her gameplan in the baptism of fire that was the Rousey fight - she is capable of utilising the same gameplan against the rest of the top competition in the division now in the same way JJ does. I see both Holm & JJ holding onto the belts for a long time.
 
Gadelha could definitely beat Jedrzejczyk. Came really close the 1st time and you could argue over who should have won. I think Jedrzejczyk is improving quicker and will continue to improve more rapidly than Gadelha, and for that reason I favour her in a rematch. But it's a really good fight that Gadelha could win. Can't wait to see it.

Holm could keep improving or even fight at the level that she did against Rousey and she'd stand a good chance with everyone in the division. I'm just not sure if she'll beat everyone else at the top of the division. Jedrzejczyk has fought the best the division has to offer and won comfortably, outside of the Gadelha fight. Holm hasn't fought anyone at the top of the division besides Rousey yet.

Holm got fast tracked to the title shot and it came off for her. Tate will shoot for takedowns against her, which Rousey didn't because Rousey gets all hers from the clinch. Nunes is far better on the feet than Rousey and will have a better shot against Holm standing than Rousey. Like I said, Holm could definitely beat everyone and stay champion for a number of fights, but I'm not sure if she will.
 
BradWCE said:
Gadelha could definitely beat Jedrzejczyk. Came really close the 1st time and you could argue over who should have won. I think Jedrzejczyk is improving quicker and will continue to improve more rapidly than Gadelha, and for that reason I favour her in a rematch. But it's a really good fight that Gadelha could win. Can't wait to see it.

Holm could keep improving or even fight at the level that she did against Rousey and she'd stand a good chance with everyone in the division. I'm just not sure if she'll beat everyone else at the top of the division. Jedrzejczyk has fought the best the division has to offer and won comfortably, outside of the Gadelha fight. Holm hasn't fought anyone at the top of the division besides Rousey yet.

Holm got fast tracked to the title shot and it came off for her. Tate will shoot for takedowns against her, which Rousey didn't because Rousey gets all hers from the clinch. Nunes is far better on the feet than Rousey and will have a better shot against Holm standing than Rousey. Like I said, Holm could definitely beat everyone and stay champion for a number of fights, but I'm not sure if she will.
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Good call on Tate shooting for takedowns. Holly's footwork will no doubt still trouble the wrestlers at 135, but they at least will be better covering the distance than Ronda was. Tate and McMann are probably the two most interesting match ups for Holly in my eyes because of this.

Really though, I'm happy to see holly fight pretty much anyone in the top 10. She showed in the Pennington fight that she's far from unbeatable and there are plenty of girls around who are well rounded enough and tough enough to give her a real fight.
 
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