Unpopular Basketball Opinions

[fidstar]

Yes only because I couldn't find the 'When I Say Best Ever .... I Mean From The Mid-1980's Thread'.

Phil Jackson when asked by Time if he could take any player who he would he take ....

"In my estimation, the guy that has to be there would be Bill Russell. He has won 11 championships as a player," Jackson said in an interview with Time. "That's really the idea of what excellence is, when you win championships."

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9307574/phil-jackson-says-start-team-bill-russell-michael-jordan

Russell did whatever was necessary to win, and unlike when Jordan was playing ....there was not the shithouse expansion teams to beat up on.

Wilt maybe even give Jordan a run for 2nd but like in the Aussie Rules and cricket ....there are clear number ones - only the dumb and the young don't know it.

You can make an argument for someone being a number 1, but how can someone be a clear number 1 when if put to the vote he would get about 10-20% of the vote?

Did you see Russel play?

Also there is a difference between best player and the player you would start a team around.

 

[Moo]

You can make an argument for someone being a number 1, but how can someone be a clear number 1 when if put to the vote he would get about 10-20% of the vote?

Did you see Russel play?

Also there is a difference between best player and the player you would start a team around.

Firstly, it's Russell - with 2 L's ....respect the great man.

How can there be a clear number 1? Well that's just my humble opinion ....however how could a poll be wrong? - I remind you that we got both Julia and Abbott from polls.....people are stupid.

Finally never a fan of the revisionism ......you had to see him play - what live? I must of missed where you flagged the conditions ...how about you list all the rules and then we can decide together.

 

[Drummer_19]

Lol 8 team rec league titles.

 

[Moo]

Lol 8 team rec league titles.

One more time in English?

 

[fidstar]

Firstly, it's Russell - with 2 L's ....respect the great man.

How can there be a clear number 1? Well that's just my humble opinion ....however how could a poll be wrong? - I remind you that we got both Julia and Abbott from polls.....people are stupid.

Finally never a fan of the revisionism ......you had to see him play - what live? I must of missed where you flagged the conditions ...how about you list all the rules and then we can decide together.

Apologize to the big fella (please don't have a go at me for my American spelling )

Sorry about making you feel like you had to start getting sarcastic and such. I just asked if you had seen him play. I personally just find it hard to say someone is "clearly" the greatest of all time when it's possible that you have seen an hour or so of highlight tapes (as that is all I have seen - though I could be wrong, maybe you have seen more).

Just from everything I've seen of the league back then it looked like even I could have played in it. Russell can obviously only beat who is out there (and he did a great job in that), but to me it's like someone tearing apart the WAFL and someone saying he's clearly the best player in Australia, when realistically he is a great player, but not clearly the best.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Yes only because I couldn't find the 'When I Say Best Ever .... I Mean From The Mid-1980's Thread'.

Phil Jackson when asked by Time if he could take any player who he would he take ....

"In my estimation, the guy that has to be there would be Bill Russell. He has won 11 championships as a player," Jackson said in an interview with Time. "That's really the idea of what excellence is, when you win championships."

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9307574/phil-jackson-says-start-team-bill-russell-michael-jordan

Russell did whatever was necessary to win, and unlike when Jordan was playing ....there was not the shithouse expansion teams to beat up on.

Wilt maybe even give Jordan a run for 2nd but like in the Aussie Rules and cricket ....there are clear number ones - only the dumb and the young don't know it.

The fact that you consider Wilt comparable with Jordan is disturbing.
---

As for Mr Russell. Championship-wise he is clearly the most dominant. But you also need to take into account the environment in which he played: He was a revolutionary player athletically (along with Wilt) who was player for a revolutionary Coach with a revolutionary lineup (the first team to be built using the best players available, regardless of race)... in a time when the league was far from professional. Yes a lot of it depended on Russell as their defensive stalwart, and often their playmaker offensively... but those Celtics teams were legendary for how much better their whole lineups were than everyone else at the time.

Is he the best big man to play the game? Yes - though I would have Kareem very very close, if not his equal... given his longevity. Was he the second best player of all time - yes. (though I think Lebron will take that mantle once his career is finished).

But he is not better than Jordan. I don't think it's even worth putting up an argument. Jordan is universally considered the best basketball player to play the game.

All I will do, is say that Bill Simmons, the biggest Celtics fan in the history of celtics fans, considers Russell behind Jordan.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

The Celtics were full of chuckers who have no business in the HOF. They ran a high pace which people confused for good offense but it was Russell's massive defensive impact that made their teams great. There has been some great statistical stuff done over on Realgm about the topic. Basically he's an incredible defensive outlier. Like if Garnett had GOAT level shotblocking.

 

[fidstar]

The Celtics were full of chuckers who have no business in the HOF. They ran a high pace which people confused for good offense but it was Russell's massive defensive impact that made their teams great. There has been some great statistical stuff done over on Realgm about the topic. Basically he's an incredible defensive outlier. Like if Garnett had GOAT level shotblocking.

Stat of the day - Bob Cousy never had a season where he shot better than 40% - though that may have been common for a point guard at the time.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Speaking of chuckers how about Elgin Baylor for most overrated player of all time. Shot more than Jerry West at Brandon Jennings efficiency and wasn't a defender either. Somehow seen as an all time great.

 

[PP34]

One of them can win games on their own, the other cant.

Garnett has won many games with his defensive impact.

Kobe is so overrated as a game winner. It must be so tough carrying teams when surrounded by Shaq and Pau.

 

[PP34]

No doubt the Celtics were better with him there. And no doubt he deserved a ring... and was probably the biggest part of them taking the next step.

And I'm not just talking about Timmy (though if rumours are to be believed - KG has a history of trash-talking about Timmy's mother, who died on his 14th birthday)... everything coming out of the NBA is that, unless you're Paul Pierce, people just don't like the guy... I don't think that makes you a great leader.
---

And comparing someone's leadership to Kobe, is like comparing someone's shooting to Rubios.

So because his opposition most likely don't like him on the court, that makes him a bad leader? That makes zero sense.

Teammates and coaches have done nothing but rave about his leadership since day dot.

 

[Drummer_19]

The Celtics were full of chuckers who have no business in the HOF. They ran a high pace which people confused for good offense but it was Russell's massive defensive impact that made their teams great. There has been some great statistical stuff done over on Realgm about the topic. Basically he's an incredible defensive outlier. Like if Garnett had GOAT level shotblocking.

The pace adjusted argument is something that gets lost in all those inflated 1960s numbers when comparing to modern day players. This is taken from something I was reading wrt when Magic asked Lebron in 09 if he could averaged a triple double like what Oscar did back in the day.

Okay, so you've all seen Wilt and Oscar's numbers from 1962... but have you ever sat down and looked at the league averages that year? In '62, the average team took 107.7 shots per game. By comparison, this year the average team takes 80.2 FGA/G. If we use a regression to estimate turnovers & offensive rebounds, the league pace factor for 1962 was 125.5 possessions/48 minutes, whereas this year it's 91.7. Oscar's Royals averaged 124.7 poss/48, while Wilt's Warriors put up a staggering 129.7 (the highest mark in the league). On the other hand, the 2009 Cavs are averaging a mere 89.2 poss/48. It turns out that the simplest explanation for the crazy statistical feats of 1961-62 (and the early sixties in general) is just that the league was playing at a much faster tempo in those days, with more possessions affording players more opportunities to amass gaudy counting statistics.

The defensive impact would also be inflated by the fact he was an athletically gifted black male in a 65% white league where the average height was 6'5 which is now 6'7 and obviously there are tons more athletically gifted players. But then again it's hard to compare eras because offensive and defensive philosophies have advanced so far since that time, so who knows what Russell could have been in the modern day with that specific training and strategic advice that players receive today and his defensive nous.

I suspect given his physical attributes and not being offensively talented (never had a year shooting over 45%, never had a TS% over 51%, these numbers seem pretty typical for most in that time period tho so I'm not sure how that translates) that he would end up being something like Dennis Rodman, I'd imagine Phil Jackson would love a Dennis Rodman that wasn't Rodman with all his antics.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

He was their play maker out of the high post. He would be a rich man's Noah on offense.

 

[DangerSloane]

Garnett has won many games with his defensive impact.

Kobe is so overrated as a game winner. It must be so tough carrying teams when surrounded by Shaq and Pau.

Seen his last quarter stats?
Hes as clutch as they come. And it could be easily argued that he won with worse teams than lebron and co.

 

[PP34]

Seen his last quarter stats?
Hes as clutch as they come. And it could be easily argued that he won with worse teams than lebron and co.

Shaq was a much better player than Wade.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

The Kobe is clutch myth is hilariously inaccurate.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Seen his last quarter stats?
Hes as clutch as they come. And it could be easily argued that he won with worse teams than lebron and co.

Shaq was the best player in the league before he was injured in 2003 and the lakers self destructed. Kobe has had a dominant big man for most of his career to play with

 

[thecatattack]

Seen his last quarter stats?
Hes as clutch as they come. And it could be easily argued that he won with worse teams than lebron and co.

lol

 

[thecatattack]

Did someone really say Russell is goat?

 

[Hipster Doofus]

I'd take Detlef Schrempf over Elgin Baylor, Kevin Johnson over Jerry West, Chris Webber over John Lucas.
Im sorry but if we were playing today that's who I'd unequivocally choose to go out and win.
Stars from the 1960's and even 1970's that aren't Wilt or Russell are grossly overrated, and even then both of them would be nothing more than 'great' in todays game.

 

[thecatattack]

Kevin Johnson over Jerry West

smh

I'd take Detlef Schrempf over Elgin Baylor, Kevin Johnson over Jerry West, Chris Webber over John Lucas.
Im sorry but if we were playing today that's who I'd unequivocally choose to go out and win.
Stars from the 1960's and even 1970's that aren't Wilt or Russell are grossly overrated, and even then both of them would be nothing more than 'great' in todays game.

What so you don't think players from back then would benefit from the elite training and sports science that athletes have access to today?

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Jerry West is a superstar in any era.

 

[PP34]

I'd take Detlef Schrempf over Elgin Baylor, Kevin Johnson over Jerry West, Chris Webber over John Lucas.
Im sorry but if we were playing today that's who I'd unequivocally choose to go out and win.
Stars from the 1960's and even 1970's that aren't Wilt or Russell are grossly overrated, and even then both of them would be nothing more than 'great' in todays game.

Seen Steve Nash play?

Obviously West is a lot different but this whole thing about needing to be super gifted athletically is non-sense.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

The larger nonsense is people assuming West wasn't athletic.

 

[TurboBreuster]

Probably more of a prediction, but I think Dellavedova will get a good amount of minutes at the end of close games this season.