never change Damo lol
Unpopular Basketball Opinions
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never change Damo lol
- Jun 23, 2008
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Well, actually playing the game in an organised setting for a long time, even at a mediocre level, does offer you a different perspective on how it works. It does feel like the NBA attracts a lot of armchair critics who haven't actually experienced the sport for themselves from a playing perspective, and they develop unrealistic ideas of how the game should be played or what is possible.
Kobe was just incredibly lucky to end up with Shaq from the outset. Plus the similarities between him and MJ always made him an extremely highly rated player to the point where people refused to accept that LeBron passed him as a player ages ago.
Would still have him above Pierce but the gulf isn't as great as most make out. KG and Pierce before 2008 would've been extremely interesting. Pierce was stuck in a cancerous environment before 2008 and it definitely hurt his reputation and his career.
Kobe has aged pretty well in my opinion. He's an angry old man now playing with some absolute hacks so I can't really blame him for being a massive chucker. I'll always rate him after he put his ego aside to lead the Lakers to the 2009 and 2010 finals. He finally realised in 2010 it's not always about scoring 30.
I think a lot of players get rated unfairly due to being on stinky teams for a big chuck of their career. People love to blame them when years of basketball shows that winning isn't a one man job.
- Jun 23, 2008
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Here's how their respective "primes" (ages 25-29) looked by comparison:
Kobe Bryant (2003-04 to 2007-08) - 370 games, 39.9 mpg, 29.6 ppg (22.0 FGA/g, .450 FG%, .346 3PT%, .846 FT%, .567 TS%), 5.8 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.5 bpg, 25.2 PER, .199 WS/48
Paul Pierce (2002-03 to 2006-07) - 367 games, 38.1 mpg, 24.4 ppg (18.0 FGA/g, .435 FG%, .338 3PT%, .801 FT%, .555 TS%), 6.7 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 21.8 PER, .155 WS/48
I feel like if Pierce had better teammates around him (meaning he wouldn't have to carry the team as much as force as many shots), but had Kobe's attitude, he would have equalled Kobe's numbers. Doing that might not have necessarily made him a better player though. I feel like Pierce's unselfishness balances the "gap" between he and Kobe, and don't feel like those early 2000s Lakers squads would have suffered any if they had local boy PP on the team instead of Kobe.
Hard to top that KG prime though from an individual standpoint, even when you compare him to a more noted "winner" like Tim Duncan:
Kevin Garnett (2000-01 to 2004-05) - 408 games, 39.3 mpg, 22.5 ppg (18.0 FGA/g, .490 FG%, .290 3PT%, .784 FT%, .547 TS%), 12.9 rpg, 5.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.7 bpg, 26.3 PER, .223 WS/48
Tim Duncan (2000-01 to 2004-05) - 380 games, 37.9 mpg, 22.8 ppg (17.2 FGA/g, .504 FG%, .238 3PT%, .683 FT%, .552 TS%), 12.3 rpg, 3.3 apg, 0.8 spg, 2.6 bpg, 26.3 PER, .239 WS/48
Pierce has also done incredibly well for a guy with half of Kobe's athletic prowess.
KG's prime just backs up why I rate him so highly. Can never understand people who argue that he should've done more with those Wolves teams. They claim he went missing in the big moments, but I argue that when you're on a team with little talent, the defence is always going to make things incredibly tough for you.
KG's prime just backs up why I rate him so highly. Can never understand people who argue that he should've done more with those Wolves teams. They claim he went missing in the big moments, but I argue that when you're on a team with little talent, the defence is always going to make things incredibly tough for you.
- Jun 23, 2008
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Had them Dunk Contest hops though once upon a time:
KG's workload was insane during his time with the Wolves, especially in the playoffs. Averaged 42.6 MPG in the playoffs with Minnesota.
Yep. People act like he was getting to the playoffs each year, getting into foul trouble nightly and losing the ball with regularity. Wasn't the case. It's a miracle he has lasted till this season, and he could still be more than handy on a contender off the bench. 5th most minutes ever.
I agree with you saying that rings are overrated (in fact I had a post in this thread about it earlier). But not having enough talent around him wasn't always Pierce's problem. Likewise Barkley and Malone both had multiple all-stars playing around them.
It was a major problem for Pierce. Plus he was drafted into a toxic environment as a player who wasn't exactly your role model athlete in the early days.
Would've helped his career big time if he had good leadership alongside him like Kobe did. Instead he quickly became the Celtics best player, Antoine Walker was moved on and Pierce was on par to be a good, troubled player on a s**t team for his whole career.
I mean he did have Garnett and Allen for 6 years, of which 5 years they were contenders. Not many players get two perennial all-stars as team mates for 6 straight years. And I haven't even considered Rondo.
And yes, Kobe obviously had it easier at the start of his career, but he is probably one of only a few superstars that got that luxury.
And yes, Kobe obviously had it easier at the start of his career, but he is probably one of only a few superstars that got that luxury.
- Apr 2, 2000
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Nope, but more evidence to back up what I was saying is all.
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I dont think you can get on players about not getting a ring. Guys like Malone, Ewing, Stockton, Miller, Barkley etc were all terrific players, champions no doubt. I mean just take them and bring them forward.
Who is the best C in the game today. For the sake of the argument, let's say Dwight Howard. Now bring forward Patrick Ewing and put him on that Rockets team with Harden. Im picking them immediately to win the title this season.
What about a top team like Portland, take out LMA and Lillard, replace with Karl Malone and John Stockton. Portland would be SERIOUS contenders, probably a 7 game series with Ewing and Harden's Rockets.
What about a team in need of a clutch shooter. What about removing Korver from Atlanta and sticking Reggie Miller in that team. With that ball movement, credible PG and very good post players and big men. The Hawks are a red hot favourite to get out of the East and even to win the title.
But what if Reggie's Hawks bump into Chicago. Let's remove Pau Gasol and replace him with Charles Barkley. Suddenly the Bulls are not just legit, they are nailed on for the title.
So all of a sudden, Reggie, Charles, Stockton and Malone, Ewing etc could be winning championships.
The reason they didnt win championships the first time round.
Michael Jordan.
So many absolute legends of the game missed out on titles because of MJ. They all came into the league at the same time and had to battle great teams like the Celtics, Pistons and Lakers in the mid 80's to 1990. Then they werent rookies anymore and were legit superstars. The problem was Jordan.
A two year window opened up. Olajuwon profited. Then back to Jordan. 8 years, all of those players primes takens away. Then by 99 they were on the way down, chasing shadows, chasing younger players and joining other teams with younger, better players to chase a ring.
That is just that era. You can go back and name several top stars who only got 1 ring or none at all thanks to Magic and Bird. Wilt managed just 2 rings because of the Celtics.
You cant measure every player by how many rings they won. It helps sure, but it's not the be all and end all. It's like Wilt v Russell. Wilt got just 2 to Russell's 11. But can anyone say Russell was the better player, debatable, but he won more cos he played with a better team. If you switch Wilt onto Boston's team, im sure Wilt would have more than 2 rings, maybe not 11, but waaaay more.
Who is the best C in the game today. For the sake of the argument, let's say Dwight Howard. Now bring forward Patrick Ewing and put him on that Rockets team with Harden. Im picking them immediately to win the title this season.
What about a top team like Portland, take out LMA and Lillard, replace with Karl Malone and John Stockton. Portland would be SERIOUS contenders, probably a 7 game series with Ewing and Harden's Rockets.
What about a team in need of a clutch shooter. What about removing Korver from Atlanta and sticking Reggie Miller in that team. With that ball movement, credible PG and very good post players and big men. The Hawks are a red hot favourite to get out of the East and even to win the title.
But what if Reggie's Hawks bump into Chicago. Let's remove Pau Gasol and replace him with Charles Barkley. Suddenly the Bulls are not just legit, they are nailed on for the title.
So all of a sudden, Reggie, Charles, Stockton and Malone, Ewing etc could be winning championships.
The reason they didnt win championships the first time round.
Michael Jordan.
So many absolute legends of the game missed out on titles because of MJ. They all came into the league at the same time and had to battle great teams like the Celtics, Pistons and Lakers in the mid 80's to 1990. Then they werent rookies anymore and were legit superstars. The problem was Jordan.
A two year window opened up. Olajuwon profited. Then back to Jordan. 8 years, all of those players primes takens away. Then by 99 they were on the way down, chasing shadows, chasing younger players and joining other teams with younger, better players to chase a ring.
That is just that era. You can go back and name several top stars who only got 1 ring or none at all thanks to Magic and Bird. Wilt managed just 2 rings because of the Celtics.
You cant measure every player by how many rings they won. It helps sure, but it's not the be all and end all. It's like Wilt v Russell. Wilt got just 2 to Russell's 11. But can anyone say Russell was the better player, debatable, but he won more cos he played with a better team. If you switch Wilt onto Boston's team, im sure Wilt would have more than 2 rings, maybe not 11, but waaaay more.
- Jun 23, 2008
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Pierce, Allen and Garnett were all past their prime once they got together. Obviously they still had a fair bit left, but as they got older, it got harder and harder to win. Kind of comparable to that Jazz squad that made the finals, or that Olajuwon/Drexler/Barkley Rockets team.
In his prime, Pierce's best teammate was Antoine Walker, who was the early 2000s equivalent of Josh Smith. He also had a drunk Vin Baker and ageing Kenny Anderson for a couple of years, but when he was at his best, the squads around Pierce were largely very average.
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I'll bet ten cents that Giannis Antetokounmpo isn't a millimetre over 205.74cm (6'9") without shoes, his wingspan isn't a millimetre over 220.98cm (7'3"), and that he's not "still growing" in length at all. I feel his height and supposed continued growth is as mythical as the 196-197cm I've seen quoted for Cale Morton and Tom Swift at times.
I say this with some bitterness that I maxed out at 193cm (6'4") with a 193cm wingspan at age 16.
I say this with some bitterness that I maxed out at 193cm (6'4") with a 193cm wingspan at age 16.
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nufan
Norm Smith Medallist
Ummmm I actually think removing Korver this season and adding Reggie to Atlanta makes them worse.
Also how about you remove Ron Artest for 72 games of a season when the Pacers are primed to go to the finals.
Hypotheticals are all well and good but I can make an arguments against all of yours
- Apr 2, 2000
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Argue away then. How would Reggie make them worse. Great shooter, definitely more clutch, he's a big time player. I think you are underrating Reggie Miller here.
But that was just one example of many that I made.
- Jun 23, 2013
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Stats don't lie
- Jun 23, 2013
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Deandre Jordan is the second coming of Wilt Chamberlain
stewie griffen
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So he's a 7 foot sperm?
- Jun 23, 2013
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yeah how ever you think of him
- Jun 23, 2008
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Considering how much he handles the ball, it's not that bad to be honest. Guys like John Wall and Eric Bledsoe turn it over at a higher rate.
Gak Attack
Brownlow Medallist
This actually annoys me about Jordan going that we always have that against our two championships. I actually believe of any team during the first and last of Jordan's championships that the 94 Rockets team was the most likely to beat them in the finals. Going into Jordan's retirement Houston had won 5 of the last 6 games, Dream was at his best and was destroying everyone from Ewing to Robinson to Shaq, the Bulls had one of the worst frontcourts in the league, they literally had nothing to stop Hakeem, also Mad Max was as good as anyone at containing Jordan(well as well as he could be contained). Also people seem to completely forget Jordan actually played in 95, those that remember claim he was rusty which he probably was but he was still averaging over 31 in the playoffs and dropped 55 on the Knicks... so he couldn't have been that rusty. At the end of the day it was Jordan so the prior matchups may not have mattered but on face value it would have been a great finals and their biggest test.
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