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VFL/AFL Reserves & Under-19 Records?

Discussion in 'Football Statistics' started by UpForGrabs, Aug 24, 2010.

Put it out there
  1. West_Coast_Eagles

    West_Coast_Eagles All Australian

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    Has anyone got any pics of any u 19 teams from late 80's or 90's? Before it went to tac cup? ThanksThanks.

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  2. ThePezDispenser

    ThePezDispenser BFSC Platinum

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    Would anyone have season results for the 1988 VLF reserves season where Footscray beat North in the Grand Final?
  3. RedmanWasHere

    RedmanWasHere Team Captain

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    Does anyone have a full database of all U19 and ressies results from 1991 and prior?

    Cheers.
  4. ThePezDispenser

    ThePezDispenser BFSC Platinum

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    I managed to find all the scores, goal kickers and bests apart from the Grand final and also missing goals and best from round 22.
  5. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Team Captain

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    Attached Files:

  6. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Team Captain

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    From The Age (online) 26 September 1988:-
    RESERVES
    FOOTSCRAY 2.3 11.7 14.10 17.14 (116)
    NORTH MELB 2.4 6.6 10.10 14.12 (96)

    Goals - FOOTSCRAY: Macpherson, Nicol 3, Cullen, Campbell 2, James, Williams, Baxter, Fitzpatrick, Wynd, Cordy, Svilar.
    NORTH MELB: Longmire 4, Love, Dwyer 3, S Smith, Romero, Harris, Schwass.
    Best - FOOTSCRAY: Macpherson, Baxter, Moloney, Tzatzaris, Campbell, Fitzpatrick.
    NORTH MELB: Longmire, Romero, Steele, O'Donoghue, Harris.

    http://news.google.com.au/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19880926&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (Page 42)
    Page 44 has a reasonable summary of the game.
    ThePezDispenser likes this.
  7. ThePezDispenser

    ThePezDispenser BFSC Platinum

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    Legend. Thank you for taking the time :)
  8. ThePezDispenser

    ThePezDispenser BFSC Platinum

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    Just got a chance to read it now, you saved me a trip to the State Library.

    I guess the fact they don't name a best on ground award would mean that they didn't have one for the reserves?
  9. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Team Captain

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    Thanks for that. :thumbsu:

    I can't say I've ever heard of a BOG award for a reserves (or U19s) Grand Final being given at any time, perhaps it may have happened in the past. Hopefully someone here can give a definitive answer.
  10. ThePezDispenser

    ThePezDispenser BFSC Platinum

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    Cheers mate.

    I'm still looking into it.
  11. CatsandTahs

    CatsandTahs Team Captain

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    WATCH THIS SPACE

    !! Reserves and U19s Database Coming !!

    I am currently in the process of putting together a database of results for all the Reserves and U19 games from 1919 to 1999 and also the VFL and the U18 TAC Cup matches through to the present.
    I am about 90% complete with the Reserves scores and about 75% complete with the U19 scores
    - need to tidy up some discrepancies and fill some gaps in the early years (trips to SLV required)
    and I hope to have a web site up and running within the next couple of months (work & other commitments may delay this)

    Regards, Ron
    Attached some screen captures of the 1919 season 1919 01.jpg
    1919 02.jpg

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  12. RogersResults

    RogersResults Team Captain

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    Congratulations but be aware that some gaps in results will never be filled from newspaper reports as matches in these competitions were sometimes never played or abandoned due to shortage of players, weather and condition of grounds.
    Unlike the senior competition of the League where postponed matches were always played, in the junior competitions this seems often to not have happened.

    Also, if you are not the aware the below has a substantial section on the League Seconds/Reserves which may be of use for some cross-reference.
    Title
    • Footystats: 2000 edition : Australian Football League statistics 1897-1999; a comprehensive study of league football /​ Kevin Taylor.
    Author
    • Taylor, Kevin.
    Published
    • Melbourne : ACP Action, 1999.
    Physical Description
    • 522 p. ; 30 cm.
    Subjects
    Notes
    • Published jointly with: Inside Football.
    Libraries Australia ID
    Note too that by the time the Seconds competition got going the League had long dispensed with the title "minor premiers" and a "right of challenge".
    The inventor of the 'Argus' system of finals to determine the premiership, R.W.E. Wilmot was very adamant on this issue in a number of newspaper articles in the 1920s,


    Several correspondents have written re-
    garding what they call "the minor premier-
    ship" and "the right of challenge", and it
    is extraordinary to think that these ques-
    tions should be asked. There is no such
    thing as the "minor premiership", nor is
    there a "right of challenge".

    See: The Myth of the Minor Premiers
    John Spicer and CatsandTahs like this.
  13. CatsandTahs

    CatsandTahs Team Captain

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    Thx for the info re "minor prems" and "right of challenge".
    Semantics in a way, but I will amend my notes so as not to perpetuate the myth.

    Yes, I am aware of the Footy Stats publication, but haven't as yet managed to put my hand on one.
    Am pretty happy with what I've been able to glean from the Argus, the Age, the SLV's Footy Records and the SMH on line archives. Most of my dramas stem from the gaps in Googles' Age collection.
    There are only 3 games in each of 1919 and 1920 that I'm missing the result and about a dozen or so that I can work out the result for but don't have the scores for and the first 2 seasons of the U19's are also a huge problem, as they seem to have occured without anyone bothering to send any info to the papers, as if they were embarassed about the comp as just about every other Junior League results were covered.

    I've come up with 9621 games compared to "the quoted 9620", and that includes about 3 or 4 forfeits, the 6 unknowns, and one abandoned after about 12 minutes of 1st Q

    But there's no point complaining about stuff we can't control and we'll just do the best we can with what've we got and put it up there and hope the fairy godmother comes good with some of the missing info.

    Regards,
    Ron
    stemline likes this.
  14. RogersResults

    RogersResults Team Captain

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    Agree that term "minor premiers" is mainly semantics and the media seems to have resurrected it in recent years.
    The "right of challenge" was however specifically removed in case in a era when concepts of "sportsmanship" were different from today, another club as Richmond did, refused to exercise it.

    If your regional library can't get a copy on inter-library loan, you could contact the author, Kevin Talylor at footysts@bigpond.net.au



    You should perhaps contact the AFL statiticians Cameron Sinclair and Col Hutchinson and let them know about your project - the League should be interested.
    (The League only knows the quarter by quarter scores of all their early matches because of the independent research undertaken by Stephen Rodgers some 25 years ago.)
  15. snax

    snax All Australian

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
  16. BLPC08

    BLPC08 Team Captain

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    Look at some of the names! Hird, Mercuri, Montgomery, Manton, Olarenshaw. They must've been one hell of an U/19 team!
  17. mianfei

    mianfei Team Captain

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    Is Hawthorn’s score the lowest winning score in Under 19 Grade football?? Such a low winning score has been observed only twice in senior football since the Reserve Grade competition began in 1919, so one imagines it would be close.

    What was the lowest winning score in the history of Reserve Grade football between 1919 and 1999 and might tables of the few lowest winning scores or lowest winning score by each team be possible??
  18. worbod

    worbod Team Captain

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    I personally do not have a vast collection of Reserves and Under 19 scores. Anything I have posted in this thread comes from my small, random collection of records, as in the record you buy when you attend a game. Also, I have a collection of Inside Footballs from 1988-1992. Hopefully somebody else can provide the data you're asking for.
    mianfei likes this.
  19. stemline

    stemline All Australian

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    Still hanging out for this...!
  20. worbod

    worbod Team Captain

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    Here is a list of known most games played in the Reserves. Taken mainly from "Inside Football" August 5, 1992 and the "Football Record" September 22/23, 1990.


    PlayerGamesClub/sSenior games[/COLOR][/FONT]
    Bob Walker201Geel14
    Mel Wishart186Rich0
    Alan Thaw170Ess41
    Mark Scott168Haw/St. K/Fitz78
    Roy Ramsay159N.Melb/Ess126
    Jim Doran155Rich0
    Emmett Dunne139Rich/Foots129
    Ian Scrimshaw135Haw/Rich59
    Glenn Howard134Haw/Coll38
    Scott Howell130Carl39
    Grant Thomas129St.K/N.Melb/Fitz83
    Mark Williams126Carl/Foots33
    Terry Wight125Coll/Foots42
    Peter Welsh125Haw/Rich125
    Xavier Tanner122N.Melb/Melb111
    John Barnett121N.Melb14
    Murray Witcombe120Geel121
    Alby Pannam119Rich183
    Richie Saunders119Rich/Fitz20
    Alle de Wolde115Haw97
    Greg Hutchison115Melb96
    Mario Bortolotto114Geel/Carl46
    Doug Davies114Geel12
    Damian Drum114Geel63
    Wes Fellowes114Coll102
    Robert Groenewegen114Foots79
    Malcolm Reed114Geel81
    Tim Harrington114N.Melb/Coll/Foots46
    Stephen Taubert113Rich/Ess/Syd123
    Peter Johnston112Melb/Geel132
    Mark Whitzell112Syd12
    Mark Eustice110Ess/Rich/Syd137
    Denis Munari110Carl/N.Melb54
    Shane Zantuck110N.Melb/Syd/Melb149
  21. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Team Captain

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    Amazing to look at those figures. With the way the system is these days it's obviously just not practical for clubs to have too many "fringe players" on their books, or to keep them for very long, so there's no real chance of current/future players making a career out of playing reserves/VFL. As for the two from Richmond who managed 0 senior games, just incredible!
  22. CatsandTahs

    CatsandTahs Team Captain

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    I believe that the Melbourne team had indicated that they were going to field a team in the inaugral season, and that University were fielding a team because of the fact that they were no longer fielding a team in the senior comp but still wanted to be involved, which in turn was because they were basically putting juniors up against men in the senior comp which was seen to be a fruitless pursuit. After Melbourne failed to find enough players in the first two weeks a second Uni team was put together to fill the gap. Uni B played the teams that missed out in the first two weeks later in season on bye or interstate match weekends. After leaving the reserves comp Uni joined the VAFA comp as Uni Blue and Uni Black.
    Cheers, Ron
  23. CatsandTahs

    CatsandTahs Team Captain

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    Sorry for the delay. Have been working in Central Australia for a few months, which makes it quite hard to get the State Library of Victoria to fill my gaps and check some discrepancies.
    Anyway, I'm back in Geelong and have been contacted by australianfootball.com about putting what I've got on their site, so that is more than likely going to happen.
    Cheers, Ron
  24. stemline

    stemline All Australian

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    Cheers mate, hope you enjoyed your time on the road!
  25. worbod

    worbod Team Captain

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    An interesting result from the final Reserves round of 1934, when St. Kilda scored either 0.1 or 0.2. This was the write-up from The Age:

    Twelve minutes after play commenced in the match between St. Kilda and Carlton, with the scores 1.0 to 0.2 in favour of Carlton, owing to the very heavy rain, W. Cubbins, captain of St. Kilda, took his men off the ground. He was followed off by the umpires and then by the Carlton players. After a lot of argument, Cubbins refused to take his men back. R. Job, the Carlton captain, again took his men on to the field. Umpire Hayes then bounced the ball, and White kicked another goal for Carlton, and all players then left the field, with the scores Carlton 2.0, St. Kilda 0.1.