Victoria Election - 29 November 2014

[Pessimistic]

Road building is a wonderful way to find new frog species

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Trams that far out are a waste of time; see Bundoora and Box Hill. No-one is going to get on a Tram that takes 90-120 minutes to reach the city, let's be honest.

Not really. People that far out are more likely to use the tram to go on local trips from home to the shops and not to the city.

You'd need a bridge or tunnel to cross Waverley Rd and the Monash anyway, so an extra 200m to cross the golf course wouldn't be a major issue.

Suppose you'd have to duplicate the tracks along the Alamein line though as it's single track, but it would be a good way of increasing services to the Pakenham line by routing trains via Alamein instead of Caulfield.

I'm surprised they haven't duplicated it now. It's only a single track from just outside Ashburton to Alemain.

You can throw the Cranbourne line into the mix aswell. Houses poping up like no tommrow and there's a single passing loop between Dandy and Cranbourne.

 

[Slax]

What a shock, changes mooted to the IBAC joke of a system that this government gave us, but done so late they won't effect this parliament. Done purely to save face and to hopefully provide them something over the next 4 years to win the 2018 election, after all they knew how corrupt they were themselves which is why they gave it such restrictive powers that it made it a $300m waste of taxpayers money.

 

[Inferno]

I d be good with that, but they reckon Doncaster Hill is too steep for a tram to get up. Which is also bullshit. San Francisco anyone?

It's not, but it's too steep to but a stop on there for about 800m or so which has been used as justification to not build it.

The Libs promised as recently as 2006 to build it though...

 

[tandino]

The eastern freeway crosses the south eastern near dandenong.

Surely the highest priority north south link is the ring road down to the eastern. Which will have to be tunnels too

Once you are on a freeway, speed covers for the fact they sometimes arent direct

Depends on who you want to piss off more.

 

[Slax]

Trams that far out are a waste of time; see Bundoora and Box Hill. No-one is going to get on a Tram that takes 90-120 minutes to reach the city, let's be honest.

Whilst these trams do take an inordinate amount of time to complete there routes along with the Vermont South tram, they are used more as a link form of transport. No-one would catch the Box Hill tram into the city when Box Hill station is across the road, instead people actually travel to Box Hill to catch the train. A similar story applies for the routes, when I lived on the Alamein train line the number of people who would use Burwood station then link up with the tram was quite large, similar story with the Bundoora tram and Thornbury station. Just because a route runs all the way into the city doesn't mean that people use it that way, just look at the 900 series bus routes, one runs from Frankston to Melbourne airport, total time is 4 hours one way, but people don't use it for that.

 

[Slax]

It's not, but it's too steep to but a stop on there for about 800m or so which has been used as justification to not build it.

The Libs promised as recently as 2006 to build it though...

They have stops on Riversdale Rd for the Wattle Park tram where the hill is just a steep. It's about desire to build it and the Libs don't care about mass public transport, never have, never will.

 

[Jiska]

Whilst these trams do take an inordinate amount of time to complete there routes along with the Vermont South tram, they are used more as a link form of transport. No-one would catch the Box Hill tram into the city when Box Hill station is across the road, instead people actually travel to Box Hill to catch the train. A similar story applies for the routes, when I lived on the Alamein train line the number of people who would use Burwood station then link up with the tram was quite large, similar story with the Bundoora tram and Thornbury station. Just because a route runs all the way into the city doesn't mean that people use it that way, just look at the 900 series bus routes, one runs from Frankston to Melbourne airport, total time is 4 hours one way, but people don't use it for that.

This is a great point with the Box Hill tram, and the very purpose a lot of Tram lines were originally commissioned.

1. What of the Bundoora extension? Clearly done to cater to University students, but no real link up with a train anywhere
2. And what about the Vermont Tram - which ends in the middle of nowhere and was recently extended for god knows what purpose.
   
3. Why isn't the #5 tram which terminates at Burke Road Glen Iris in the middle of nowhere extended a couple of hundred metres down to Waverley Road and East Malvern station??
4. Ditto for the #3 tram, which should be extended down to Darling Station near Dairy Bell. In fact, why not extend it along Waverley Road an extra 2km and terminate at Chadstone Shopping Centre and kill two birds with one stone??
5. Extend the #64 tram down to Gardenvale Station
6. Why not extend the #8 tram down to Tooronga Shopping Centre and then along Tooronga Road to the station? It's current terminus point is a traffic hazard anyway.

I'm sure there are plenty more examples.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

This is a great point with the Box Hill tram, and the very purpose a lot of Tram lines were originally commissioned.

I'd say a lot of the reason for some of them might have to do with the tram lines mentioned being pre-existing to the nearby train lines.
Or that they just stopped building /extending tram lines in the the early to mid 20th to century, much like the did with trains, thinking cars were the answer.

 

[Jiska]

I'd say a lot of the reason for some of them might have to do with the tram lines mentioned being pre-existing to the nearby train lines.
Or that they just stopped building /extending tram lines in the the early to mid 20th to century, much like the did with trains, thinking cars were the answer.

I understand what's happened in the past, but I'm talking about the here and now. I think we've reached the point as a community where we've come to the realisation that cars are not the answer.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

I understand what's happened in the past, but I'm talking about the here and now. I think we've reached the point as a community where we've come to the realisation that cars are not the answer.

Because it's now seen as too hard, people don't want to give up their streetside parking or have the inconvenience of the middle of the street ripped up for months to install the tracks, not to mention the unsightly overhead wires.

Complete lack of courage from politicians.

If it was up to me I'd be installing a tram line from Frankston Station down Cranbourne Road to the South Gippsland Hwy and then to Cranbourne Station, with a spur down the centre of the Moorooduc Hwy to Baxter Hill

I'd also be recommissioning the Mornington Line with a potential tram route along the Nepean Hwy to Mt Eliza and Mt Martha with potentially a secondary route down Mornington-Tyabb Road to Tyabb Station. although they would need to use diesel trams or Electrics that can run on battery power for short sections to get across the Tyabb airport flight path.

EDIT: Anyone who is from the area might be able to spot another (quite large) flaw in a Mornington-Tyabb Rd Tram line.

 

[Slax]

This is a great point with the Box Hill tram, and the very purpose a lot of Tram lines were originally commissioned.

1. What of the Bundoora extension? Clearly done to cater to University students, but no real link up with a train anywhere
2. And what about the Vermont Tram - which ends in the middle of nowhere and was recently extended for god knows what purpose.
   
3. Why isn't the #5 tram which terminates at Burke Road Glen Iris in the middle of nowhere extended a couple of hundred metres down to Waverley Road and East Malvern station??
4. Ditto for the #3 tram, which should be extended down to Darling Station near Dairy Bell. In fact, why not extend it along Waverley Road an extra 2km and terminate at Chadstone Shopping Centre and kill two birds with one stone??
5. Extend the #64 tram down to Gardenvale Station
6. Why not extend the #8 tram down to Tooronga Shopping Centre and then along Tooronga Road to the station? It's current terminus point is a traffic hazard anyway.

I'm sure there are plenty more examples.

Replies

1. Bundoora tram like 75 caters for more localised travel rather than travel to CBD. A lot of students live in the Bundoora region and travel to La Trobe Uni.
2. Similar stroy, just never sure why they haven't built the final leg of the route to Knox Shopping Centre.
3. You got your trams mixed up, #3 would extended down Waverley Rd to East Malvern station. But why no-one has ever built that 500m of track I don't know. Probably some politician had a house there.
4. It's the #5 tram, but extending it down Wattletree rd to Malvern Rd would leave it too far from Darling Station to effectively link up. If you want a line to extend down Waverley Rd then get the #3 route to do this from East Malvern station. You'd need to turn this road down Chadstone Rd which is not wide enough to handle a tram. If you want one to get to Chadstone the logistics is actually quite difficult as Princes Hwy can't handle it in that area.
5. Not sure how you do this, #64 runs down Hawthorn Rd to Nepean Hwy, to get it near Gardenvale Station would require a complete and utter re-route and Nepean Hwy beyond Glenhuntly Rd can't handle it and neither can North Rd.
6. Whilst I agree on it being a Traffic Hazzard there are other issues to deal with that make this impractical. The level crossing that exists, the gradient of the hill up to the Tooronga shopping centre is definitely an issue (I've seen accidents where cars have rolled back trying to find a gear and hit the car behind a few times) and the whole intersection on and off the Monash Fwy. Logical yes, practical no.

Whilst there are some good ideas, there are reasons why most of these have not been done, except the #3 tram to East Malvern Station, the more I think about it, the dumber it seems that it hasn't been done.

I will add an additional one. If they are unwilling to build a train to the airport at least extend the tram from Airport West shopping centre up Melrose Dr to the airport, whilst it is about 6km you'd only add a couple of stops because most of it is car park.

 

[mottrain]

This is a great point with the Box Hill tram, and the very purpose a lot of Tram lines were originally commissioned.

1. What of the Bundoora extension? Clearly done to cater to University students, but no real link up with a train anywhere
2. And what about the Vermont Tram - which ends in the middle of nowhere and was recently extended for god knows what purpose.
   
3. Why isn't the #5 tram which terminates at Burke Road Glen Iris in the middle of nowhere extended a couple of hundred metres down to Waverley Road and East Malvern station??
4. Ditto for the #3 tram, which should be extended down to Darling Station near Dairy Bell. In fact, why not extend it along Waverley Road an extra 2km and terminate at Chadstone Shopping Centre and kill two birds with one stone??
5. Extend the #64 tram down to Gardenvale Station
6. Why not extend the #8 tram down to Tooronga Shopping Centre and then along Tooronga Road to the station? It's current terminus point is a traffic hazard anyway.

I'm sure there are plenty more examples.

Vermont tram connects with Knox City and also buses from Mitcha, Nuna and Heatherdale sation.

They don't need to extend the 64 to Gardenvale.

East Malvern tram is too hard to extend. Essentially this has been proposed but knocked on its head.

The #8 tram has been talked about again actually are big problems with where will end such as the freeway and also level crossing coming up just before the freeway. They need to do both these things together but think that there are two criticisms. Firstly the freeway and agreements with the toll provider as it is where it starts and secondly the fact foremost it is in a safe Liberals seat. Think that there is a likelihood literally very soon that this will get done as another big bit of it is how many education facilities and also the number of offices over that way.

#5 tram's the one next to Glen Iris station.

The Bundoora tram was for university mainly but also a number of buses go from at or near the end to Epping Station.

Because it's now seen as too hard, people don't want to give up their streetside parking or have the inconvenience of the middle of the street ripped up for months to install the tracks, not to mention the unsightly overhead wires.

Complete lack of courage from politicians.

If it was up to me I'd be installing a tram line from Frankston Station down Cranbourne Road to the South Gippsland Hwy and then to Cranbourne Station, with a spur down the centre of the Moorooduc Hwy to Baxter Hill

I'd also be recommissioning the Mornington Line with a potential tram route along the Nepean Hwy to Mt Eliza and Mt Martha with potentially a secondary route down Mornington-Tyabb Road to Tyabb Station. although they would need to use diesel trams or Electrics that can run on battery power for short sections to get across the Tyabb airport flight path.

EDIT: Anyone who is from the area might be able to spot another (quite large) flaw in a Mornington-Tyabb Rd Tram line.

The rail line literally is sitting there still in most parts. Pretty much makes more sense to take the train and redo this as well as possibly putting cable in for Baxter

 

[Ice-Wolf]

The rail line literally is sitting there still in most parts. Pretty much makes more sense to take the train and redo this as well as possibly putting cable in for Baxter

Mornington Railway line is an easy one to put back in only changes that would be at least 1 grade separation Moorooduc Highway, although I'd also look at Frankston-Flinders Rd & Bungower Rd as well.

The only issue with the Mornington line is that it can't go to the centre of Mornington without tunnelling because they allowed a private hospital, some commercial buildings and some houses to be build on and around the old rail reservation, so it would most likely stop at the Nepean Highway.

Would probably also extend dual tracks to the Mornington spur at Baxter and add an additional platform at Frankston, Baxter, Leawarra and build a Langwarrin Station as well as grade separating from Frankston to Leawarra. But it would be perfectly functional without this.

 

[mottrain]

If they built it I think even to nepean highway they then totally will get a big benefit from it. Just run shuttle buses to the town centre also to travel to mt Eliza.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

If they built it I think even to nepean highway they then totally will get a big benefit from it. Just run shuttle buses to the town centre also to travel to mt Eliza.

Pretty much what I was going for as a first stage, the change to a sprinter service on the Stony Point line should prove evidence that a similar set up should be able to operate quite well without the cost of electrification, refurbish the tracks install some boom gates install signalling and upgraded points at Baxter, again the set ups for the Stony Point line proves it can work.

As far as rolling stock lease 2 more Sprinters from V-Line and maybe look to add a maintenance facility at Frankston Station.

Potentially a line to Rye could also be initially based on diesel sprinter service.

With enough in use you could look at reconfiguring the insides of the trains to suit their quasi-suburban use.

 

[Inferno]

They have stops on Riversdale Rd for the Wattle Park tram where the hill is just a steep. It's about desire to build it and the Libs don't care about mass public transport, never have, never will.

To be fair IIRC disability access has a role to play, so stops can't be above a certain angle. I'm presuming the 70 tram gets around it because that tram line existed well before those regulations came into place.

But I agree it's still a cop out. If they had the will they'd find a way to build it.

 

[Jiska]

Realistically, there should never have been railway crossings at Burke or Tooak Roads. When they built the SE, they could have easily built a road going over the top of the railway line, especially given there's a hill either side of both intersections. Two of the worst congested areas in the SE.

 

[Jiska]

:

1. You got your trams mixed up, #3 would extended down Waverley Rd to East Malvern station. But why no-one has ever built that 500m of track I don't know. Probably some politician had a house there.

Actually I got my stations mixed up, not tram routes #5 could extend down to the end of Wattletree Road, making it a 5 minute walk to Darling Station, although may as well extended down Waverley and terminate at Darling Road.

1. It's the #5 tram, but extending it down Wattletree rd to Malvern Rd would leave it too far from Darling Station to effectively link up. If you want a line to extend down Waverley Rd then get the #3 route to do this from East Malvern station. You'd need to turn this road down Chadstone Rd which is not wide enough to handle a tram. If you want one to get to Chadstone the logistics is actually quite difficult as Princes Hwy can't handle it in that area.

Nope, #3. Extend down to Dairy Bell at a minimum. Don't see the issue running it up Malvern Road to Homlesglen and terminating there, given student access is the precursor for over tram route extensions, as discussed.

1. Not sure how you do this, #64 runs down Hawthorn Rd to Nepean Hwy, to get it near Gardenvale Station would require a complete and utter re-route and Nepean Hwy beyond Glenhuntly Rd can't handle it and neither can North Rd.

A silly suggestion in hindsight. Extending around on to and along Nepean to Moorabbin would make much more sense.

I will add an additional one. If they are unwilling to build a train to the airport at least extend the tram from Airport West shopping centre up Melrose Dr to the airport, whilst it is about 6km you'd only add a couple of stops because most of it is car park.

Not sure what that would achieve. Would take forever to get from the airport to the city.

 

[Jiska]

Vermont tram connects with Knox City and also buses from Mitcha, Nuna and Heatherdale sation.

East Malvern tram is too hard to extend. Essentially this has been proposed but knocked on its head.

#5 tram's the one next to Glen Iris station.

Forget buses. They just create more gridlock all over the city.

Why is East Malvern too hard to extend?

Nope, that's the #6

 

[Jiska]

Mornington Railway line is an easy one to put back in only changes that would be at least 1 grade separation Moorooduc Highway, although I'd also look at Frankston-Flinders Rd & Bungower Rd as well.

The only issue with the Mornington line is that it can't go to the centre of Mornington without tunnelling because they allowed a private hospital, some commercial buildings and some houses to be build on and around the old rail reservation, so it would most likely stop at the Nepean Highway.

Would probably also extend dual tracks to the Mornington spur at Baxter and add an additional platform at Frankston, Baxter, Leawarra and build a Langwarrin Station as well as grade separating from Frankston to Leawarra. But it would be perfectly functional without this.

Reopening the Morninton Line would be impossible without a third track from Caulfield due to the extra patronage that would ensure.

 

[mottrain]

Forget buses. They just create more gridlock all over the city.

Why is East Malvern too hard to extend?

Nope, that's the #6

Out there they tend not to.

 

[Jiska]

Out there they tend not to.

This is true. Today anyway, but the reason we're in this mess is because previous Governments governed for the present and not the future. If we're to seriously invest in transport, let's plan for the next 60-80 years rather tha making quick fixes for the current problems. Otherwise our children will be having this very discussion and asking why we didn't plan for population and density increases.

 

[Slax]

Not sure what that would achieve. Would take forever to get from the airport to the city.

As I previous discussed to use trams effectively on longer routes you need to link them up with train stations, the Airport West tram links up with the train at Essendon station, the trip from the airport to Fletcher St (Essendon Railway Station stop) would be about 20 minutes.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Reopening the Morninton Line would be impossible without a third track from Caulfield due to the extra patronage that would ensure.

Not really as it is only a shuttle service to Frankston the biggest change would be less use of the car park at Frankston station many are already driving to Frankston to catch the train. It would probably increase patronage during the day and also assist cross peninsula travel as the trains are quicker than the buses.