Victorian trainers scandal

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Mar 17, 2014
10,853
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AFL Club
Collingwood
Back on topic, Darren Smith was disqualified for 15 years today for Cobalt offences.
You are either trolling or there is a strong club/player supported to intellect ratio going on :D
umm no
you asked me why i thought racing was worse and i gave my reasons. then you attacked me without anything backing you up besides "i disagree" ... ok you won a couple of points on a technicality because i cant be bothered expressing myself properly, but i am asking your reasons why you think racing is better now.. i gave 10 reasons.. i just want 3 or 4....
and i wont attack you for them, i might refute
 

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umm no
you asked me why i thought racing was worse and i gave my reasons. then you attacked me without anything backing you up besides "i disagree" ...

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Last edited:

Jugada

Brownlow Medallist
Dec 5, 2012
10,706
12,659
AFL Club
West Coast
you seem to be the troll then
you initially asked me why then i answered
you have nothing dont you

Your answers either had nothing to back them up, were the same things that were happening 10 years ago or were proven to be just flat out incorrect. Ill give you the ratings because personally i dont like them

1. The horses are worse - Based on what? Everything you listed was happening 10 years ago with the exception of us bringing in Europeans, but adding them doesnt make whats already here worse
2. We race too much - We race pretty much the same amount
3. Bad coverage - Well Sky now have 2 additional channels and i would argue them being able to show live vision of more races is a positive. Sky were never an in depth analysis show even 10 years ago
4. Crowds are down - crowds are down because of the innovation of online betting meaning the punter doesnt have to go to the track any more. But still that had already taken effect 10 years ago. Is the punter being able to operate out of his office at home a bad thing for racing though? Its a good thing for the punter anyway
5. Prize money down - already shown that it isnt

I mean i cant even be bothered with the rest because its all stuff that was the same 10 years ago anyway
 
Jan 30, 2013
16,166
16,559
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
you asked for it!
The horses are way worse, and that's because we are selling the good horses we are breeding to Hong Kong and Singapore and buying hack stayers from Europe, and also breeding from the hacks rather than raiding Japan for good sires and mares. there is a reason Pinker Pinker won a Cox Plate and Suavito won a Futurity, because the good mares are the only horses we keep, good geldings get sold overseas and entires retire early (although that was always the case).
Someone please give me one good reason why the rating system is better than the old class system? The rating system just encourages mediocre horses to get pulled up so that they can race in easier races, it leads to plethora of absolutely shocking ratings races every day that are worse then maidens, and horse don't race through the classes like they used to, hence we get good horses that have short careers because they reach their class too quickly, or we get hack horses who race forever because they can win 0-58 races. Do not tell me that its good because it works overseas. We had the best system and copied a shocking system because "most of the rest of the world" did it. The old class system had the same faults, win a race or two out of your grade and bam your an open class horse that can't run within 10L of genuine horses. Horses had short careers this way too, at least the current system allows horses to go backwards in grade instead of being forced to race out of its class. Anyone with half a brain when placing their horse and can go through the grades, it's just people prefer to rush the animals and put them out of their grade early. In WA you can win 9 consecutive races before being in listed grade just a lazy 250-400k and that's if you do it consecutively and never lose points. The problem of large volumes of s**t races lies with the grass roots owners and trainers striving for that one last win with their one horse that they've probably owned for 6 years and spent $100,000 on. Some people enjoy racing for the small things, not how it looks on TV, or how interesting it is to bet on. I could ramble on about this forever but the rating system in aus is yet to be perfected but it's far better than it's predecessor for people racing their horses and are half competent.
We race too much causing racing fatigue for everyone. Fatigue for who? The horses? or the trainers that force them to race every two weeks? Or the jockeys that rely on that $180 per ride for their livelyhood? I'm sure they won't be saying cut back the meets. Or the poor punters that struggle to stretch themselves over every single location in aus?
We cannot get a decent coverage of racing on TV because of the greed of the TAB
The privatization of the TAB has caused a loss of interest in horse racing because they just care about getting people to punt on anything (the abomination that is trackside) instead of promoting horse racing as a sport rather than a betting medium. This is probably the one I agree with most.
Crowds are down everywhere and dont say the are up at the Flemington Carnival. 80 percent of those goers wouldnt know what a horse looked like. They are party crowds not horse racing crowds.
Media coverage has almost disappeared. It used to be the 3rd biggest sport now it would be lucky to be top ten, except any type of controversy then its front page. See post above, saved me writing it out.
Different bodies running racing in different states leads to ridiculous race programming. Overreaction off one season thanks Gai. Competition is good for the sport IMO, it makes victoria try lift their standard vs the autumn carnival and vice versa for spring. I discussed my reasons for not wanting this in the other thread however.
Promoters seem to think that they will get the person off the street to see jockeys, most don't care.. its the horses that are the stars so promote the horses not jockeys. OK? Sort of makes sense but even so I don't think anyone off the street would know who Luke Nolen is, black Caviar... Maybe. Not sure this is huge problem as any way to get people involved in racing should be seen a good thing.
Prizemoney is down. Completely False. Country tracks in WA are now 300% the purse of 10 years ago. Metropolitan racing in WA is at 200% I mean s**t Sydney had a benchmark rise of 20k last year alone! Yes some good races have less prizemoney but with the changing landscape of racing(happened for decades) some races become better, some worse. Ie the BMW halved but the QE up 500% singling out feature races as a point of prizemoney going downhill isn't justified. Just watch the Australian cup be moved or downgraded in the next few yeas.
Trainers expenses are too high for the average owner. So it has become the sport of kings only recently? I seem to have thought that saying was older than 10 years huh.

now tell me why racing is better now?

There's a couple reason why it's definitely not worse for you anyway.
 
Mar 17, 2014
10,853
12,742
AFL Club
Collingwood
Your answers either had nothing to back them up, were the same things that were happening 10 years ago or were proven to be just flat out incorrect. Ill give you the ratings because personally i dont like them

1. The horses are worse - Based on what? Everything you listed was happening 10 years ago with the exception of us bringing in Europeans, but adding them doesnt make whats already here worse
2. We race too much - We race pretty much the same amount
3. Bad coverage - Well Sky now have 2 additional channels and i would argue them being able to show live vision of more races is a positive. Sky were never an in depth analysis show even 10 years ago
4. Crowds are down - crowds are down because of the innovation of online betting meaning the punter doesnt have to go to the track any more. But still that had already taken effect 10 years ago. Is the punter being able to operate out of his office at home a bad thing for racing though? Its a good thing for the punter anyway
5. Prize money down - already shown that it isnt

I mean i cant even be bothered with the rest because its all stuff that was the same 10 years ago anyway
1 horses are worse because maidens and mediocre mares are winning our major races.. shamus award? pinker pinker? suavito? Pinker Pinker and Shamus Award wouldnt have got a run let alone won the race 10 years ago.
2. we race every day and friday nights and heaps of meetings on the weekends. cant remember when night racing started but because of it country racing has been devalued.
3. its not just bad its diabolical. at home if you dont have Sky you cannot watch Melb and Sydney races together on the internet because they cannot talk to each other. but its not jus t that, if the average person who has not much interest in horse racing wants to see a race they cant because they have to pay for it. you are looking small picture not big picture. plus we all love Yonkers harness racing clashing with Mildura races while the dubbo dogs take precedence on sky in a club.
4 . So you agree with me crowds are down.. again you are looking at it from a punters point of view not from a ordinary person who just wants to have fun at the races except they end up going being bored with long delays between races and not much to do and therefore never go again and dont bet either.
5. Prize money is down for the middle teir group races. the big races are up and the average race is up but the mid races like the Futurity and the Edward Manifold and races such as those have had prize money drops. The prize money spread is uneven

so in my opinion racing was in a way better state 10 years ago.. and infinately better 20 years ago .. in other words its f*cked itself. Not going to post again about this cos i cant be bothered , but i still want someone.. anyone give me 3 or 4 good reasons why racing is in a better state today if that is their opinion
 

Jugada

Brownlow Medallist
Dec 5, 2012
10,706
12,659
AFL Club
West Coast
1 horses are worse because maidens and mediocre mares are winning our major races.. shamus award? pinker pinker? suavito? Pinker Pinker and Shamus Award wouldnt have got a run let alone won the race 10 years ago.
2. we race every day and friday nights and heaps of meetings on the weekends. cant remember when night racing started but because of it country racing has been devalued.
3. its not just bad its diabolical. at home if you dont have Sky you cannot watch Melb and Sydney races together on the internet because they cannot talk to each other. but its not jus t that, if the average person who has not much interest in horse racing wants to see a race they cant because they have to pay for it. you are looking small picture not big picture. plus we all love Yonkers harness racing clashing with Mildura races while the dubbo dogs take precedence on sky in a club.
4 . So you agree with me crowds are down.. again you are looking at it from a punters point of view not from a ordinary person who just wants to have fun at the races except they end up going being bored with long delays between races and not much to do and therefore never go again and dont bet either.
5. Prize money is down for the middle teir group races. the big races are up and the average race is up but the mid races like the Futurity and the Edward Manifold and races such as those have had prize money drops. The prize money spread is uneven

so in my opinion racing was in a way better state 10 years ago.. and infinately better 20 years ago .. in other words its f*cked itself. Not going to post again about this cos i cant be bothered , but i still want someone.. anyone give me 3 or 4 good reasons why racing is in a better state today if that is their opinion

1. There were no poor G1 winners 10 years ago? Curata Storm won a BMW off the back of a Hawkesbury class 1 or something. Shamus was just as good as Savabeel too.
Can we also not call the futurity a major.

2. Yes and we raced every day back then too. I would love to know how racing at night devalues country racing

3. Wtf are you talking about? Yes they need to pay for Sky, they always have. I must have missed in 05 when they cut off the 24/7 free to air coverage..hell the free to air coverage is probably actually better right now than it was then

4. I agree crowds are down from 15-20 years ago, not 10. How is it a bad thing for things to be less crowded for the people who do want to go? Wtf do delays between races and getting bored have to do? The delays are the same as they were back then..this has nothing to do with anything

5. Already explained above

You have got the rose coloured nostalgia glasses on

abesimpson_backinmyday.jpg
 

terminators

All Australian
Oct 10, 2008
708
321
geelong
AFL Club
Collingwood
Also according to the ARB prize money in 2013/14 was $509m in 2003/04 it was $344m - so it has actually INCREASED almost 50%.

Now kindly go away.

Inflation has increased COL 33% in that time but definitely still up overall on a per race basis. That said, other costs such as increased vet bills, fuel costs, entry fees would cut into increased prize money as well. Tough to know what the real figure is, a lot of the incremental costs get passed on to owners.
 
Inflation has increased COL 33% in that time but definitely still up overall on a per race basis. That said, other costs such as increased vet bills, fuel costs, entry fees would cut into increased prize money as well. Tough to know what the real figure is, a lot of the incremental costs get passed on to owners.

Ok - so its still up around 17% in real terms on absolute basis, and that is with less races being held in the 2013/14.

The claim is just plain factually wrong.
 
you heard the same rumour i heard Yaco?

Been on the fringes of the racing industry for 40 years. Always lots of rumours about successful trainers having the right medicine - But never heard the hayes Clan mentioned in this breath.
 

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