Society/Culture Violence in Society; Who is to blame?

[romeoh]

http://www.smh.com.au/national/rich-man-poor-woman-the-gender-wealth-gap-widens-20141108-11igay.html

Cliffs:
- the main difference is the value of housing
- women choose to have kids, therefore can't afford to move up in the property market
- more women in uni than men
- women earned more super than men

AngryRanga

And men aren't choosing to have kids?

 

[fleabitten]

Obviously women are not more stupid, or less motivated than men so their career choices, if that explains the discrepancy, are telling us something aren't they.

Maybe. My first thought would be that men are more likely to take on more physically demanding or dangerous jobs, such as mining, construction, working on oil rigs, etc., while women are more prevalent in things like child care. I worked as a personal carer and as a teacher, so I'm not denigrating those professions but it's hard to argue that someone who spends their day babysitting should be paid the same as someone who spends their day with a kilometre of earth above them. You could argue that traditionally female roles such as teaching and nursing are underpaid and I would agree with you but I don't think it's because of sexism.

Ken Lay on radio yesterday seemed to be suggesting that if the figures are a bit skewed, its doing females a disservice. And that is because the women who are violent towards men are often using violence as self -defence. ( hence the assumption can be made that the violence is generally initiated by the males)

See, that's offensive. There are studies that say the same thing about women (that a lot of battered women are themselves violent and are the instigators as much as they are the victims...look up Erin Pizzey) and feminists lose their s**t when those are brought up. I don't really blame them because that's a slippery slope. It's no different if you're trying to pin the blame on male victims.

You can hardly use personal anecdotes to validate, or otherwise, your theories.
A feminist is surely just someone who expects equal pay for equal work, equal opportunity etc. No need to throw all people with feminist views into the extreme group. I would suggest that in fact the females in your life are feminists because the values of it are as you outline.

This is another maddening thing about feminists. They want to claim people as feminists who themselves don't want to be called that. My kids are still too young to decide whether that's something they would want to call themselves. I hope they never have to think about it too much and just get on with being awesome. My wife and mother both reject the label entirely, as is their right.

Also, I'm just wondering...if women don't get equal pay for equal work, why does anyone hire men at all? It would be common sense to hire women if they were going to do the same work for less money. Have you ever had a job where the men and the women were on different pay rates for the same work? If anything, I've seen the opposite. Men and women paid the same amount but the men end up doing all the heavy lifting.

 

[Floor Pie]

I think the problem is, feminism has been linked to so much bullshit, that people have a negative view of what feminism really is.

People think feminism is some lefty pinko commie, greens party, hippie, man hating amalgamate.
It isn't and it shouldn't be thought of that way.

Feminism is just the desire for equality between sexes, in a society which has deemed one sex as lesser for most of it's existence.

So, any sane person should be a feminist. Because it doesn't mean it would contradict any other views you hold, unless you believe sexes shouldn't be equal, and females should be considered lesser beings.

You can be a feminist, and push for greater support male mental health care, if you feel male mental healthcare is under-represented.
They are not combative.

There are people who claim to be feminists, who might argue against it. But that doesn't mean that's what feminism is.

 

[fleabitten]

Humanism is the way to go. No room for confusion there.

 

[romeoh]

Maybe. My first thought would be that men are more likely to take on more physically demanding or dangerous jobs, such as mining, construction, working on oil rigs, etc., while women are more prevalent in things like child care. I worked as a personal carer and as a teacher, so I'm not denigrating those professions but it's hard to argue that someone who spends their day babysitting should be paid the same as someone who spends their day with a kilometre of earth above them. You could argue that traditionally female roles such as teaching and nursing are underpaid and I would agree with you but I don't think it's because of sexism.



See, that's offensive. There are studies that say the same thing about women (that a lot of battered women are themselves violent and are the instigators as much as they are the victims...look up Erin Pizzey) and feminists lose their s**t when those are brought up. I don't really blame them because that's a slippery slope. It's no different if you're trying to pin the blame on male victims.



This is another maddening thing about feminists. They want to claim people as feminists who themselves don't want to be called that. My kids are still too young to decide whether that's something they would want to call themselves. I hope they never have to think about it too much and just get on with being awesome. My wife and mother both reject the label entirely, as is their right.
Oral presentations/issues


Also, I'm just wondering...if women don't get equal pay for equal work, why does anyone hire men at all? It would be common sense to hire women if they were going to do the same work for less money. Have you ever had a job where the men and the women were on different pay rates for the same work? If anything, I've seen the opposite. Men and women paid the same amount but the men end up doing all the heavy lifting.

Well if it is offensive -take it up with Ken Lay-he is the one who said it and one would assume he has a clue about the issue. ( he is only the Police Chief Commisioner after all). Go and listen to 774 Thursday yesterday arvo's show.
My point re the label 'feminist' which you and your wife reject, is that the backlash against it is based on some extremists who have sullied the word. The actual word is just about equality and not deserving of such vitriol. You and your wife might feel proud that you believe the genders are just the same=and that is feminism.

 

[romeoh]

But what 'equality' are feminists fighting for?

-The pay gap? Men do harder, higher paying jobs.
-Violence against women? The violence is equal both ways, but women get hurt more often. Everyone is doing everything they can to cut the numbers down. There is no violent/rape culture as people commonly say.
-Stereotypes in media? Goes both ways.

This is why I don't identify with feminism. I don't see much except for double standards of wanting extra privileges for women, rather than equality.

What issues is feminism still fighting against?

Which harder jobs do men do and why is that?
The violence is not equal both ways, women suffer more from domestic violence.
It is not about having privileges, it is about being equal.
Women are underrepresented in many important areas and presumably that is worth fighting to change ( e.g. Tone' cabinet has 1 woman-does that sound right to you?)

 

[Raz0r6ack]

I think the problem is, feminism has been linked to so much bullshit, that people have a negative view of what feminism really is.

People think feminism is some lefty pinko commie, greens party, hippie, man hating amalgamate.
It isn't and it shouldn't be thought of that way.

Feminism is just the desire for equality between sexes, in a society which has deemed one sex as lesser for most of it's existence.

So, any sane person should be a feminist. Because it doesn't mean it would contradict any other views you hold, unless you believe sexes shouldn't be equal, and females should be considered lesser beings.

You can be a feminist, and push for greater support male mental health care, if you feel male mental healthcare is under-represented.
They are not combative.

There are people who claim to be feminists, who might argue against it. But that doesn't mean that's what feminism is.

You don't even know what feminism is, do you?

Feminism - the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.
Masculism - the advocacy of men's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.
Egalitarian - a person who advocates or supports the principle of equality for all people.

Feminism has nothing to do with men's issues, it is exclusively set out to helping women's problems. Feminists only ever bring up instances of men's mental health to give male feminists a false sense of security and to try and goat men into blindly supporting their cause so they can shame other men who don't want to identify themselves as feminist.

The problem with feminism is that it is largely represented by misfits, such as yourself, Kynge of Begrem, cartwright, The Coup, etc. It is pretty much 99% of the reason why most people don't want to label themselves as feminist because of the negative annotation that comes with being associated with negative people and an unequal label.

No one is against women having equal rights and equal opportunity, it's just that most men and women can see through the bullshit propaganda that feminists spew.

 

[The Coup]

Feminism - the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

And contextually what do you think this actually means.

 

[Gough]

What issues is feminism still fighting against?

Refer the treatment of Julia Gillard. Undeniably there was part of Australia who didn't like here coz she was a chick. Those types for starters.

 

[mottrain]

Which harder jobs do men do and why is that?
The violence is not equal both ways, women suffer more from domestic violence.
It is not about having privileges, it is about being equal.
Women are underrepresented in many important areas and presumably that is worth fighting to change ( e.g. Tone' cabinet has 1 woman-does that sound right to you?)

The violence from women towards dudes is massively underreported. There are also actually a number of areas where men are not equally represented compared to women who get advantages.

 

[mottrain]

Refer the treatment of Julia Gillard. Undeniably there was part of Australia who didn't like here coz she was a chick. Those types for starters.

Yeah like what? Even chicks were at her for stuff she sprouted.

 

[romeoh]

The violence from women towards dudes is massively underreported. There are also actually a number of areas where men are not equally represented compared to women who get advantages.

How do you know that it is 'massively underreported"? What areas for example are women advantaged?

 

[fleabitten]

Well if it is offensive -take it up with Ken Lay-he is the one who said it and one would assume he has a clue about the issue. ( he is only the Police Chief Commisioner after all). Go and listen to 774 Thursday yesterday arvo's show.

Doesn't matter who said it, it's still offensive. It's actually a pretty good example of our society's demonization of and discrimination against men. Basically saying that it's okay when women attack their husbands because they probably deserved it.

 

[romeoh]

1. Men do harder jobs because for some jobs, they are simply more physically able. For others, a combination of old gender roles and maybe men just enjoy doing that work more. I honestly can't be bothered looking up specific instances of high paid work that is male dominated due to requiring physical strength of something, but you know there are jobs like that. But it isn't 'being paid less for the same work' at all.

2. The violence is equal both ways (I'm not going to bother googling some research, so we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this), but yes, women do 'suffer' more from domestic violence.

3. That's the catch cry, but I don't really see that. Convince me, I'm open minded.

You make the assumption that 'physical work' is harder when am not sure that is the case.
The violence isn't equal-you need to do some research.
Do you thing that there should be more equality in the Abbott cabinet-is that about asking for privileges or asking for equal opportunity?

 

[romeoh]

Doesn't matter who said it, it's still offensive. It's actually a pretty good example of our society's demonization of and discrimination against men. Basically saying that it's okay when women attack their husbands because they probably deserved it.

Ken Lay didn't say it is ok, and he didn't say they deserved it-you are just putting words in people's mouths. He just said that is what is happening -if the Police chief Commissioner says that, maybe instead of assuming it is offensive, you could take a more openminded approach and listen to someone with expertise in the area?

 

[Floor Pie]

You don't even know what feminism is, do you?

Feminism - the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.
Masculism - the advocacy of men's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.
Egalitarian - a person who advocates or supports the principle of equality for all people.

Feminism has nothing to do with men's issues, it is exclusively set out to helping women's problems. Feminists only ever bring up instances of men's mental health to give male feminists a false sense of security and to try and goat men into blindly supporting their cause so they can shame other men who don't want to identify themselves as feminist.

The problem with feminism is that it is largely represented by misfits, such as yourself, Kynge of Begrem, cartwright, The Coup, etc. It is pretty much 99% of the reason why most people don't want to label themselves as feminist because of the negative annotation that comes with being associated with negative people and an unequal label.

No one is against women having equal rights and equal opportunity, it's just that most men and women can see through the bullshit propaganda that feminists spew.

You are part of the problem.
Not understanding what is said, and propagating the myth that feminism tries to claim it, due to some evil ulterior motive.

Read my post again. I'm not saying feminism is fighting for men's mental health... I said, "You can be a feminist, and push for greater support male mental health care, if you feel male mental healthcare is under-represented.
They are not combative."
I'm not saying that it's what feminism stands for. I'm pointing out that they do not oppose each other in any way.

You actually posted the definition of feminism... and you still don't understand that it is actually what feminism is...

 

[Floor Pie]

But what 'equality' are feminists fighting for?

-The pay gap? Men do harder, higher paying jobs.
-Violence against women? The violence is equal both ways, but women get hurt more often. Everyone is doing everything they can to cut the numbers down. There is no violent/rape culture as people commonly say.
-Stereotypes in media? Goes both ways.

This is why I don't identify with feminism. I don't see much except for double standards of wanting extra privileges for women, rather than equality.

What issues is feminism still fighting against?

Feminism doesn't need to be fighting anything, to still exist...
Believing that women should be treated equally is just something everyone should think.

But, there is still sexism in this country, so I would say it's fighting against that.

Things like blaming female rape victims. I would say feminism is fighting against that.


I'd enjoy reading the study that found domestic violence is equal both ways, but that women are just hurt more. (Are they hurt more, because they are weaker, or softer? Can you expand on this please?)

 

[fleabitten]

Refer the treatment of Julia Gillard. Undeniably there was part of Australia who didn't like here coz she was a chick. Those types for starters.

That's a good point. She was a pretty awful PM and when the PM is disliked, people are going to attack them in any way they can, but simply being a woman isn't really much to base your insults on. That was ugly and embarrassing.

 

[Floor Pie]

Doesn't matter who said it, it's still offensive. It's actually a pretty good example of our society's demonization of and discrimination against men. Basically saying that it's okay when women attack their husbands because they probably deserved it.

Are you of the opinion, that we don't need the feminism ideology, because women are now the power sex, and men are being taken advantage of?
We need someone fighting for the right to treat men equally in our society?

 

[Raz0r6ack]

You are part of the problem.
Not understanding what is said, and propagating the myth that feminism tries to claim it, due to some evil ulterior motive.

Read my post again. I'm not saying feminism is fighting for men's mental health... I said, "You can be a feminist, and push for greater support male mental health care, if you feel male mental healthcare is under-represented.
They are not combative."
I'm not saying that it's what feminism stands for. I'm pointing out that they do not oppose each other in any way.

You actually posted the definition of feminism... and you still don't understand that it is actually what feminism is...

Precisely, if you have those views then you are not a feminist, you're an egalitarian.

 

[Floor Pie]

2. It is. It includes things like slapping. It really isn't a far stretch of common sense to imagine that if slapping is counted as domestic violence the stats will even up.

Slapping your domestic partner is domestic violence.

 

[Floor Pie]

Precisely, if you have those views then you are not a feminist, you're an egalitarian.

Why can't I be both?

 

[The Coup]

Precisely, if you have those views then you are not a feminist, you're an egalitarian.

Actually you're both if you factor in context. But right whingers are not very good at that.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Why can't I be both?

Because feminism is only about for fighting for gender specific rights and egalitarianism is about fighting for the equality of everyone.

 

[Floor Pie]

Because feminism is only about for fighting for gender specific rights and egalitarianism is about fighting for the equality of everyone.

Feminism isn't about fighting... You quoted the definition yourself.

Being a feminist doesn't mean I can't also be an egalitarian... They are not mutually exclusive, because feminism is not about the removal of the rights of others...