wayne carey v gary ablett snr

wayne carey v gary ablett snr

  • wayne carey

    Votes: 85 54.5%
  • gary ablett snr

    Votes: 71 45.5%

  • Total voters
    156
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Donkey Chop

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Nah, he didn't have the endurance for a midfeld role.

Probably because of his error. If he was coming though now I doubt it would be an issue

Edit: it's a bit silly to argue about the hypothetical, I stuggle to keep up with what has happened, bugger what could have. It was just 'food for thought' line
 
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Oct 5, 2013
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Nah, he didn't have the endurance for a midfeld role.

He won a B&F playing through the midfield o_O

It turns out he was far more valuable around the goals and he moved to the half forward flank alternating between full forward and back again until he made the permanent shift in season 1993.

Abletts goal average at FF was lower than both Dunstall and Locketts, it's unlikely he would have gone past either of them.

1993, his goal average was 7.3 per game
1994, goal average was 5.1 per game
1995, goal average was 5.5 per game
1996, (didn't play every game at full forward) goal average was 4.0 per game

That is a goal average of 5.5 goals per game over the course of four seasons.
Lockett and Dunstall's goal averages were 4.9 & 4.7 goals respectively.

You can try and twist those numbers around to suit any which argument you please podge but as you can see, Ablett's goal average as a permanent FF was a lot better than the other two.
 
Oct 23, 2014
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He won a B&F playing through the midfield o_O

Nah, his BnF in 1985 where he kicked 82 goals with only 332 disposals. Obviously not a midfield role.

That is a goal average of 5.5 goals per game over the course of four seasons.

444 goals/81 games = 5.48, not 5.5

Tony Lockett's average over the same period of time was 5.57

So Ablett's averages were not extraordinary even for the 90s. You could extrapolate from this four year average and say he might have gotten close to Tony Lockett though.
 
Oct 5, 2013
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444 goals/81 games = 5.48, not 5.5
Tony Lockett's average over the same period of time was 5.57

nope, Lockett's goal average over his career was 4.84.
You have gone from saying Ablett's goal average at full forward was lower than Lockett and Dunstall to now taking a sample size of Lockett's career between 1993-1996.
Lockett also played far fewer games as the only other time he was able to play 80 games or more over the course of four seasons was the period 1984-1987 where he averaged 4.1 goals per game.

And lastly, even if you do compare this sample size of only 61 games from Lockett's career, his record against the eventual top 6 (then top 8) sides was not as good as what Ablett's was. 151 out of 340 goals kicked against finalist vs 211 out of 444 goals kicked by Ablett against finalists.
 
Oct 23, 2014
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nope, Lockett's goal average over his career was 4.84.

And Ablett's was 4.15 . . . you can't put up four years of a player's career as equivalent to a career average and expect to be taken seriously.

You have gone from saying Ablett's goal average at full forward was lower than Lockett and Dunstall to now taking a sample size of Lockett's career between 1993-1996.

I'm using the same years, there are plenty of indicators to show that Ablett's four year run at full-forward was not a standout at the time, the comparison with Lockett is just one.

And lastly, even if you do compare this sample size of only 61 games from Lockett's career, his record against the eventual top 6 (then top 8) sides was not as good as what Ablett's was. 151 out of 340 goals kicked against finalist vs 211 out of 444 goals kicked by Ablett against finalists.

Uh, no Lockett averaged 4.3 goals a game in finals, Ablett averaged somewhere in the 3s. This is from the permanent full-forward years.
 
Oct 5, 2013
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And Ablett's was 4.15 . . . you can't put up four years of a player's career as equivalent to a career average and expect to be taken seriously.

lol hence why I questioned you over using Lockett's goal average from 1993-1996 as a means to suggest his goal average against Ablett's was superior.
The only data we can go by is what Ablett produced as a permanent full forward compared to what Lockett produced as a permanent full forward. Statistically speaking, Ablett was a better full forward and I believe a lot of this had to do with his superior athleticism and also his ability to kick just as fluently at goal as what he did on his preferred kicking foot. Lockett was a far superior version of Tom Hawkins. Pretty one dimensional but gets the job done more often than not (obviously got it done a lot more consistently than Hawkins however).

You have totally contradicted yourself in the subsequent posts. Your now going on about finals footy when I merely brought up both players averages against finals bound teams.
And last time I checked Hodgepodge, Ablett played the whole game at full forward in the 1989 grand final.
 
Oct 5, 2013
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I'm using the same years, there are plenty of indicators to show that Ablett's four year run at full-forward was not a standout at the time, the comparison with Lockett is just one.

and considering the age discrepancy in which one player was 5 years older than the other, it's amazing Ablett was still arguably the best in the game at that time.
Lockett at 31 years of age was nothing spectacular at all.
 
Oct 23, 2014
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lol hence why I questioned you over using Lockett's goal average from 1993-1996 as a means to suggest his goal average against Ablett's was superior.

Your question is in spite of it, not because of it. I gave an equal comparison.

The only data we can go by is what Ablett produced as a permanent full forward compared to what Lockett produced as a permanent full forward.

Nah, there is plenty of data we can go by. You've chosen to compare a 4 year stint average to a career average for obvious reasons.

You have totally contradicted yourself in the subsequent posts. Your now going on about finals footy when I merely brought up both players averages against finals bound teams.

That's not a contradiction, I just find finals opponents are less subjective.

And last time I checked Hodgepodge, Ablett played the whole game at full forward in the 1989 grand final.

There's plenty of games that Ablett played at full-forward before he started playing there permanently. If you're going to include them, then include them all.
 
Oct 23, 2014
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and considering the age discrepancy in which one player was 5 years older than the other, it's amazing Ablett was still arguably the best in the game at that time.
Lockett at 31 years of age was nothing spectacular at all.

Yes, but at 32 he went back to something resembling his best form, again proving that age isn't the determining factor that you think it is.


Ablett wouldn't be the first or only player to peak in his 30s. Barry Hall's highest goal average was in his final year. Sam Mitchell has won almost all his AAs in his 30s. And so on.
 

M Malice

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i didn't think there would be such a feisty debate over probably 2 of the best all time top 10 players, and welcome mr.lockett to the discussion, another top 10 all time.
enjoyable reading lethality and bobby.
 
Oct 23, 2014
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i didn't think there would be such a feisty debate over probably 2 of the best all time top 10 players, and welcome mr.lockett to the discussion, another top 10 all time.
enjoyable reading lethality and bobby.

I just object to judging players on what they might have done, which is often the case with Ablett for some reason.
 
Oct 5, 2013
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I just object to judging players on what they might have done, which is often the case with Ablett for some reason.

but again, this not about what if's. I'm really not sure how else to put it.
Ablett's goal average as a permanent full forward for the last four years of his career was extraordinary. Only Peter Hudson and John Coleman had slightly better averages which says a fair amount considering those two were widely regarded as the best of their generation.

Compare Ablett's finals record to Dunstall and Lockett and he's out in front. That's not what he might have done, that's it in a nutshell.
His State record is also brilliant. 11 appearances wearing the Big V and 4 goals per game playing from a half forward flank . . . GOAT!
 
Of course it matters, there's nothing wrong with getting the maths correct when determining averages.
You are truly beyond the point of needing help.

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Oct 23, 2014
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Ablett's goal average as a permanent full forward for the last four years of his career was extraordinary. Only Peter Hudson and John Coleman had slightly better averages which says a fair amount considering those two were widely regarded as the best of their generation.

You're comparing four years to career averages, of course it's going to be higher. I showed that with Tony Lockett, he has a four year average which is also higher than his career average. You could do the same with Dunstall. This is very basic stuff.

Compare Ablett's finals record to Dunstall and Lockett and he's out in front.

Yeah, shift the goalposts from the discussion on full-forwards to allow 1989 and I suppose he would be :rolleyes:.
 
Nobody's making a bigger deal about this than you are. I made a simple correction, you're the one who's having a meltdown over it.
Well to be correct 444/81 is actually 5.48148148

All but you could see he was rounding up which was minute by itself. but alas this is Podgey 101. Twist and manipulate everything to your favour to the point where the initial argument has changed.
 
Oct 23, 2014
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All but you could see he was rounding up which was minute by itself. but alas this is Podgey 101. Twist and manipulate everything to your favour to the point where the initial argument has changed.

Sounds like you're just upset that the facts in my favour rather than anything else.
 
Sounds like you're just upset that the facts in my favour rather than anything else.
Not really. My opinion on the better player isn't going to be swayed, especially by the likes of you.
 
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