'Western liberal democracy' has 'gone full *'

[evo]

not the point.

whenever you hear about sport and MCG and Australians you will inevitably hear a jingoist utter "hitting above our weight", or bruce mcavaney. usually around olympics time, this is why there was a royal inquiry when the Australians sucked balls in London.

well, maybe if a jewish american or Israeli loses their lock on the Nobel for physics they may spit the dummie.

and the Kiwis have a better sports performance on a per capita scale (not talking Olympics). The HAdlee Crowe 3 million had us over a table and were reaming the 15 million in the 1980s here.

The Israelis, for 6 million, have signigificant projection of Influence. You are right, 6 million is pipsqueak, STFU number, piss off and stop bothering us, go back to Entebbe number.

But no, the wield significant power beyond their middle-low, low-middle-low power.

Sure, it punches above its weight. I wont disagree with that.

 

[Play by Numbers]

It's where the battles are fought but it doesn't 'run the show'.

No nation does.

 

[Lester Burnham]

Their collective psyche is historically one of weakness. Slavish. As a group I personally don't believe their philosophy equipped them to 'run the show'.

Maybe I've taken Neitzsche too seriously - and sure, many of their people have gained great power, particularly in the U.S - but I can't envisage them as the centuries long puppeteers.

Perhaps both aspects have been evident. There may have been a collective psyche of weakness and slavishness amongst the masses over centuries. But it would not have been possible to establish a Jewish state in the last 130 years without the many Zionists that gained great influence in governments across the world.

 

[blackcat]

No nation does.

American does. This is why Australia are so slavish to their consulate and whim

 

[blackcat]

I don't know. In terms of the global economy, or wider agenda setting in an international forum maybe. But that much crazy, concentrated in such a minute country. Very much could be the straw that exploded the camels back, sometime in the future, kicking off who knows what mayhem

nukes are for power. not to use. The one concern Israel have is DC, and their influence with potus and State dep't. nothing else matters. UN matters not a lick.

Israel have been leading the anti-Iran posture, not because they are developing nukes, they arent, the US and Israeli intelligence services both know they arent and have published the record. research it. The nukes are about power.

 

[Play by Numbers]

American does. This is why Australia are so slavish to their consulate and whim

I don't know, the age of nations as dominant political and economic forces may be coming to an end. Also, I think things are far more unbalanced than many believe. China is undermining the US in ways that could result in long term changes to the global order. Currency and trade, which is what matters anyway. They have the population, the growing wealth, the industrial base, in fact it's not US military power holding China back, it's China's inherent instabilities and the viciously corrupt and destructive central government. I mean, they rule a dystopian fascist superstate, what many Yanks imagine the US will one day become, with an iron fist and their approach to international relations, whilst more caustious, isn't much better when given any semblence of power or influence /

 

[Long Live HFC]

So? Sometimes laws are unjust and it is our ethical duty, if we want a fair society to push the limits.

sure, i have no issues with that. but this (crushing of london occupy) is what happens when you're a minority rabble that nobody gives a s**t about. don't get cranky when your 50-100 strong street party is mopped up by the state coz you don't have sufficient force of numbers.

 

[Play by Numbers]

nukes are for power. not to use. The one concern Israel have is DC, and their influence with potus and State dep't. nothing else matters. UN matters not a lick.

Israel have been leading the anti-Iran posture, not because they are developing nukes, they arent, the US and Israeli intelligence services both know they arent and have published the record. research it. The nukes are about power.

Probably too literal of an interpretation of exploded.

My concern is that when backed into a corner, Israel may just go balistic and do something very irrational. It's a slow genocide on the west bank and Palistinian territories and the Brits are starting to have misgivings. The US will too eventually.

I think the point at which Israel both becomes vulnerable to international pressure, and their own problems with the economy and religious divide come to a head, someone may do something exceedingly stupid which provokes a backlash Israel won't be able to control .

 

[Play by Numbers]

sure, i have no issues with that. but this (crushing of london occupy) is what happens when you're a minority rabble that nobody gives a s**t about. don't get cranky when your 50-100 strong street party is mopped up by the state coz you don't have sufficient force of numbers.

Every social movement has to start somewhere.

 

[evo]

Perhaps both aspects have been evident. There may have been a collective psyche of weakness and slavishness amongst the masses over centuries. But it would not have been possible to establish a Jewish state in the last 130 years without the many Zionists that gained great influence in governments across the world.

And with that came the 'inversion of values'.

Sure, they infiltrate and coerce those in power. This works particularly well in a Christian country such as the U.S because Judeo and Christian values overlap.

However they never truly 'run the show'. They don't have Greco-Roman values. Those values are held by the people fairdinkum worries about. ( whoever they may be , I dont know - all i'm saying is they aint Jews)


http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/authors/Dalton-Nietzsche.html

The sad state of modern life, he said, is a consequence of the overturning of classical values that occurred in the early post-Christian world. These classic values—originating in ancient Greece and embraced by the Romans—emphasized strength, robustness, nobility, self-determination, and personal excellence. These life-affirming values, the ‘master’ or ‘aristocratic’ values, were the foundation upon which the great civilizations of Athens and Rome were built.



One consequence of this development was the powerful and expansive Roman Empire. It reached Palestine by the year 60 b.c., and held that territory for over five hundred years, until the fall of the Western Empire in 476 (though the Eastern, or Byzantine, Empire continued on much longer). During this time, Nietzsche claimed, the oppression felt by the Jews and early Christians grew to the point at which a new value system—the Judeo-Christian value system—came into being, as a kind of religious and ethical response to Roman domination. Though a single unified system, it carried different emphases for the two groups. For Jews the focus was on self-pity, ethnic cohesion, a thirst for revenge, an obsession with freedom, a hatred of the strong and powerful, and a desire to recover lost wealth. The Christians—through the figure of Jesus—preferred to emphasize the value of the down-trodden (“blessed are the meek”), faith in God to bring justice (“the meek shall inherit the earth”), salvation in the afterlife, and a fixation on love as a means for ameliorating suffering. Arising as it did out of the quasi-slavery imposed by the Romans, Nietzsche deemed this collective Judeo-Christian response a ‘slave’ or ‘priestly’ morality.

 

[Long Live HFC]

Every social movement has to start somewhere.

yep. and this one can start beneath the state's Boots of Crushing Dissent.

 

[Play by Numbers]

snip

Nietzsche was a ****.

I can't take anyone seriously, who gives that much credence to human "values" as a driver of societal change. Social values a re a response variable, to borrow statistical parlance, a product and adaption to wider environment, population and technological forces.

 

[Play by Numbers]

yep. and this one can start beneath the state's Boots of Crushing Dissent.

The way you write that, it sounds like it makes you just a little hard. No judging /

 

[evo]

Nietzsche was a ****.

I can't take anyone seriously, who gives that much credence to human "values" as a driver of societal change. Social values a re a response variable, to borrow statistical parlance, a product and adaption to wider environment, population and technological forces.

that's because, as I intimated above, you have been taught the social sciences through a post modern lens

 

[Long Live HFC]

The way you write that, it sounds like it makes you just a little hard. No judging /

yeah, sometimes i enjoy seeing entitled unemployed hippies in rich liberal democracies get a bit of stick from "the man". im not about to complain about the state of democracy over a few dozen being told to stop making the place look untidy. i try to reserve my outrage for things that are actually outrageous.

 

[blackcat]

Probably too literal of an interpretation of exploded.

My concern is that when backed into a corner, Israel may just go balistic and do something very irrational. It's a slow genocide on the west bank and Palistinian territories and the Brits are starting to have misgivings. The US will too eventually.

I think the point at which Israel both becomes vulnerable to international pressure, and their own problems with the economy and religious divide come to a head, someone may do something exceedingly stupid which provokes a backlash Israel won't be able to control .

their economy will be just fine. They are second with registered patents at the World Intellectual Property Agency. Ofcourse, it is not just numerical, it is how the patents can be exploited. Its like a little Palo Alto and Bay Area. its not just orange juice concentration

 

[Play by Numbers]

that's because, as I intimated above, you have been taught the social sciences through a post modern lens

Cheaky campaigner.

Though I am not sure if you could describe it is a post modern viewpoint. More a rationalist viewpoint, which devalues the relevance of direct human agency. It's hindsight really that allows for any semblance of narative or cohesion, when trying to define such flimsy things as social values and order.

 

[Play by Numbers]

their economy will be just fine. They are second with registered patents at the World Intellectual Property Agency. Ofcourse, it is not just numerical, it is how the patents can be exploited. Its like a little Palo Alto and Bay Area. its not just orange juice concentration

I'm not sure if that matters, the issue is that the country is split down the centre. On the one side it is a religious theocracy, where state and population are subserviant to religious demands, the other a modern democracy. You have two competing power structures. Two different economic models. Plus the more traditionally minded religious population is growing faster than the secular.

An angry, zealous, poorly educated and state entangled population, demanding more secular or reformist citizens staff the IDF and fight their wars, plus generate taxable income to support the state.

If they didn't have the so called Islamic menace, the country would be tearing itself apart

 

[Smiling Buddha]

Israel is small beer in the grander scheme of things.

What. on. earth. is...

 

[evo]

What. on. earth. is...

From my posts in this thread, thats what you decided to focus on? Disapointing

 

[blackcat]

And with that came the 'inversion of values'.

Sure, they infiltrate and coerce those in power. This works particularly well in a Christian country such as the U.S because Judeo and Christian values overlap.

However they never truly 'run the show'. They don't have Greco-Roman values. Those values are held by the people fairdinkum worries about. ( whoever they may be , I dont know - all i'm saying is they aint Jews)


http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/authors/Dalton-Nietzsche.html

The sad state of modern life, he said, is a consequence of the overturning of classical values that occurred in the early post-Christian world. These classic values—originating in ancient Greece and embraced by the Romans—emphasized strength, robustness, nobility, self-determination, and personal excellence. These life-affirming values, the ‘master’ or ‘aristocratic’ values, were the foundation upon which the great civilizations of Athens and Rome were built.



One consequence of this development was the powerful and expansive Roman Empire. It reached Palestine by the year 60 b.c., and held that territory for over five hundred years, until the fall of the Western Empire in 476 (though the Eastern, or Byzantine, Empire continued on much longer). During this time, Nietzsche claimed, the oppression felt by the Jews and early Christians grew to the point at which a new value system—the Judeo-Christian value system—came into being, as a kind of religious and ethical response to Roman domination. Though a single unified system, it carried different emphases for the two groups. For Jews the focus was on self-pity, ethnic cohesion, a thirst for revenge, an obsession with freedom, a hatred of the strong and powerful, and a desire to recover lost wealth. The Christians—through the figure of Jesus—preferred to emphasize the value of the down-trodden (“blessed are the meek”), faith in God to bring justice (“the meek shall inherit the earth”), salvation in the afterlife, and a fixation on love as a means for ameliorating suffering. Arising as it did out of the quasi-slavery imposed by the Romans, Nietzsche deemed this collective Judeo-Christian response a ‘slave’ or ‘priestly’ morality.

re:nietzsche, so that is the dichotomy counterpart of hegel's master slave?

I'm not sure if that matters, the issue is that the country is split down the centre. On the one side it is a religious theocracy, where state and population are subserviant to religious demands, the other a modern democracy. You have two competing power structures. Two different economic models. Plus the more traditionally minded religious population is growing faster than the secular.

An angry, zealous, poorly educated and state entangled population, demanding more secular or reformist citizens staff the IDF and fight their wars, plus generate taxable income to support the state.

If they didn't have the so called Islamic menace, the country would be tearing itself apart

the haredi and orthodox are not as significant as you indicate.

the west bank orthodox in actually are in the IDF and have a significant sway in the airforce. That is where most of their numbers are. And integrating the orthodoxfrom the westbank in the IDF (airforce) has entrenched policy for settling the westbank.

 

[evo]

re:nietzsche, so that is the dichotomy counterpart of hegel's master slave?


.

they are not as related as you might think.

Marx and Hegels dialectic are much closer related.

 

[blackcat]

they are not as related as you might think.

Marx and Hegels dialectic are much closer related.

i meant dichotomy, as the yin yang. complete opposing position. but then, i know not either, so i should not take any position.



Smiling Buddha were you talking re: power politics re:small beer? was ambiguous?

 

[evo]

i meant dichotomy, as the yin yang.

Hegel is like that, if I understand him aright. It's a metaphysics.

Nietzsche use of it isnt. It's more of attempt to understand ethics from a historical perspective.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

From my posts in this thread, thats what you decided to focus on? Disapointing

Brah they have nuclear bombs and they aren't afraid to use them.

That alone means they are no 'small beer'.

Then you have all of the dual citizens in top posts within American government and administration.

Then you have Oded Yinon, whose plans come closer to fruition with each passing year.

Coincidence? Yeah, right.