Roast What has happened to our list?

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List is ok. The club addressed a lot of area's in the last draft and you can't off load all your spuds in one hit, as you need to have 3 in the gun for the next draft. History will say that only one or two from a draft will make it long term, unless you nail it big time - here's hoping the last draft we have 4 or 5 that go on to make it long term.

I did a bit of looksy at the draft (traded players not included) for games played from that group of draftee's and number of players from that draft still playing. Then compared that against the Hawks, as they are at the top of the tree at the moment and were in a similar position as us back around 2004.

Draft Year - Tigers (game played), still playing v Hawks (games played), still playing
2001 - 698 games, Newman remains v 667 games, none remain
2002 - 195, none remain v 873, Hodge & Mitchell
2003 - 202, none remain, (Schulz) v 415, none remain, 1 elsewhere (Zac Dawson)
2004 - 680, Lids, (McGuane) v 904, 2 remain Roughy & Lewis, 2 elsewhere (Franklin & Young)
2005 - 204, none, (White) v 683, 1 remains Birchall, 2 elsewhere (X Ellis & McGlynn)
2006 - 476, 2 remain Jack & Sheds v 184, 1 remains Suckling, 2 elsewhere (J Kennedy, S Gibson)
2007 - 254, 2 remain Cotch & Rance v 265, 2 remain Rioli, Whitecross
2008 - 268, Vickery (Nahas) v 449, 3 remain Scheonemakers, Shiels, Breust, 2 others elsewhere (Savage, Lowden)
2009 - 392, 4 remain Dusty, Griff, Astbury, Grimes v 242, 3 remain Grimely, Stratton, Duryea
2010 - 263, 3 remain Conca, Batch, Houli v 230, 4 remain Smith, Litherland, Poupolo, Langford, 1 elsewhere
2011 - 95, 3 remain Ellis, Elton, Arnot v 134, 2 remain Hill, Woodward
2012 - 89, 5 remain Vlas, McIn, McBe, McDo, Petterd v 28, 3 remain O'Brien, Brand, Celgar
2013 - 77, 5 remain Lennon, Gordon, Llyod, Miles, Thomas v 51, 5 remain
2014 - 1, 10 selections v 0, 7 selections

Eveyone has hits and misses in the draft, it's those that nail the second round picks and make something of their rookies (breust, suckling, langford etc) that get the upper hand.
Trading (which is not included above), coaching and development would seem to be the standout in differences between us and them, given their rise from 2004 compared to us.
 
We fielded a younger side than the Bulldogs at the weekend.
That's with Chris 'The Outlier' Newman AND we still have 13 players 21 or younger on our list who didn't play.
We also have the second most current first round picks in the competition.

Of course there are areas we need to improve, but I'm not worried about our list.
 
TheUndertaker said:
What are our big problems?

*Drafting
The club continues to draft players that fit Damien Hardwick's mould.

*Damien Hardwick's Mould
A player that battles but doesn't *star*.

*Lack of *stars*
Players that have slipped through during the draft to other clubs when we've been in position to get them. How many times can you miss out of a Nat Fyfe, Lance Franklin, Dyson Heppell, Ollie Wines, etc, and think that you can get away with that bullshit?

*Bullshit
The consistent selection of completely average footballers that are beginning to fill our list.

*Our List
It used to be one with huge upside, thanks largely to players like Astbury, Rance, Griffiths, Ellis, Vlastuin. How it's gotten to the point where our supporters are *hoping* that Thomas is elevated from the rookie list is beyond me.

*VFL/SANFL players
Hello, the draft isn't ******* compromised now. Why are we continually picking players like Lloyd, Gordon, Lambert, Morris over and over again. Why hasn't Lennon, Elton (didn't Elton KILL it during preseason?) gotten games. Why is Kane Lambert (a player who's been in the door for 3 months) playing over guys who've been on the list for 3-4 years. On top of that, we're playing rejects, everywhere.

*Rejects
A player that has been released from another club, i.e., Hunt, Petterd, Gordon. These guys might have some good games, but they are bringing down the overall potential and quality of our list. One mans trash is another mans treasure, but when you lose to a second game coach against a side that's incredibly young, the blowtorch is amplified.

*The Blowtorch
Dustin Martin played s**t last week. Inconsistent. Brandon Ellis isn't as influential as he should be. Wasn't Hampson brought into our club in exchange for a second round pick? When Carlton are outsmarting you on the drafting/trading table, you know there are deep underlying problems. What the hell is going on with Trent Cotchin? What's up with these dinky 20 metre kicks and these cheap possessions? I'm perplexed. Grimes gets a golden ride on this forum, he's inability to impose himself on the contest and actually 'create' is uninspiring. It's almost as frustrating as our injuries.

*Injuries
Nathan Foley in my mind has one large asterisk next to his name. He's playing 75% and he's making a great career of it at Richmond! David Astbury gets injured, Deledio is beginning to be injury prone, Chris Knights was signed and probably strained his wrist putting pen to paper.

*Paper
Alex Rance is easily our best player, I called it last year. Now he's the only player not signed yet. Interesting. It's quite interesting that our club is so 'conservative' with their list management that they feel they need to retain most of this list, rather than expand and build on it. Why haven't we managed to attract Mitch Clark, Eddie Betts, Kurt Tippett, Dom Tyson (who ******* barracks for Richmond) etc? There's no excitement, everything being done through our list management is boring and depressing. We're not attracting big stars, we're barely keeping our own. **** me sideways if Dylan Shiel resigns, because if we can't attract that goose while he's dating Choco's daughter, we can't attract anyone.

What next?

Well we're seeing a very vital stage of our development as a club now.

Stagnation.

Other football clubs are climbing over the top of us, we're swimming in the middle of the pool. The damage was done during preseason, every club made inroads to improve their list, their coaching staff, Richmond? ******* jack s**t. Hired Ben Rutten and Kane Lambert, **** me dead, what's that gonna ******* do???? We're reliant on our current list to develop and get better, when every other club is doing the same +++ they are adding more to their list.

Seeing Port breeze past us last year was sad, now the Doggies are doing it, the Crows are showing signs, Brisbane has potential. These teams were defeated by our club 1-2 years ago, they're passing us by right now and we're a mile away from the true contenders of Hawthorn, Sydney and Fremantle.

Oh and **** Essesnon, another club that's going to sail right past us this year.

One win won't do it for me, we've got a 6-7 week stretch where we play real quality teams, our season will be toasted by the halfway point if we play this bullshit football that we've been playing the last 6/8 quarters.
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I tried creating my own thread to express my opinion, but it was shut by the mods because it wasn't positive or something, so I'll give my thoughts here.

The players don't care about the jumper, they only care about their wallets.

Damian Hardwick is incapable of making this team care about the jumper.

The list has the talent required to be a flag threat, but the club doesn't have the necessary attitude or commitment to make it happen.

Following what was, in my opinion, the worst loss for this football club in 20 years last week against the Bottom 4 Bulldogs, the players should have their match payments removed if they fail to win.

This club accepts mediocrity, it accepts just being thereabouts.

It must start to accept only one thing - premierships. Everything else is a fail.

You win the premiership, the club gets an A.
You don't win the premiership, the club gets an F.
You win a game of footy, the players get paid.
You lose a game of footy, the players don't get paid.

Bring this model in, and we'd win a premiership with the list this year, because whilst the players still wouldn't be playing for the jumper (nothing will make them do this), they would be playing for their livelihood, and they would stop at nothing to get to every contest, and absolutely monster any opposition, because purely and simply, if they didn't they'd have no money.

It would never happen in today's game, I get that. But seriously, I can't see any other way we win a flag in the next 30 years. The players don't care, the coach doesn't care. It's just a job to them.

It's not their lifeblood. The RFC is their employer, not their life. If these players had as much passion as some of our fans, and if these players felt the same disgust that I (and many others) felt last week, good GOD they would come out this week and break records against the Lions.

Not gonna happen though, because the players, whilst they're good enough technically, they simply do not care.
 

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Overreaction.jpg

2 weeks into the season and after a poor game against the Dogs the what is wrong with the club and sack the coach threads have surfaced again.

People talk about the drafting and how we only seem to go after battlers, well we recruited Menadue Drummond Butler Short & Castagna who all bring speed and good skills to the table. The problem is that outside of Drummond they are all 19 or younger and not physically ready to come in and play AFL week after week, unless of course everyone would be happy in us going from a top 8 contender to a bottom 6 side.

In the side itself we've brought in McIntosh & Hunt to ad speed. If not for injury to Deledio & Edwards we saw against Carlton that we look a much quicker side than we did at any time last season. Add 2-3 of those 1st year kids to the side over the rest of this season & next season and the speed factor goes up again.

Like the Sack Hardwick thread I have no doubt that had we won on Saturday afternoon we'd not be reading these types of threads. Be interesting if we win 8-10 of the next 12 games I do wonder if we'll see the same posters currently sinking the slipper in praising Hardwick for turning thinks around as the season progressed, then again I doubt it.
 
The list is slowly improving.

I have a couple of issues with it though.

1. Last year we again tried to fix the small forward problem.

The list approach to this lately has been a shotgun approach. Fire heaps of shots and hope something will hit the target. This won't work and it's frankly a bloody stupid approach.

2. We tend to keep players too long.

Vickery could do with a change of scenery and we have a couple of talls in McBean and Elton waiting in the wings. A trade would have worked for all parties. Also Newman looks finished 2 games into the year.

3. We're not aggressive enough trying to lure talent.

The club has talked about spare cash and free agency for a couple of years but so far it has been all talk and nothing else.
 
Tigerland said:
The list is slowly improving.

I have a couple of issues with it though.

1. Last year we again tried to fix the small forward problem.

The list approach to this lately has been a shotgun approach. Fire heaps of shots and hope something will hit the target. This won't work and it's frankly a bloody stupid approach.

2. We tend to keep players too long.

Vickery could do with a change of scenery and we have a couple of talls in McBean and Elton waiting in the wings. A trade would have worked for all parties. Also Newman looks finished 2 games into the year.

3. We're not aggressive enough trying to lure talent.

The club has talked about spare cash and free agency for a couple of years but so far it has been all talk and nothing else.
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For a club that has tried to sell its members that it was always going to invest heavily in last years draft they sure forgot that they offered Mitch Robinson
Jason Winderlich
Levi Greenwood &
(my foot is broken) Trengrove

Contracts . Yes that's right 4 players and we would of ended up with picks 33 and 55 ish and a couple of rookie picks

Wow . Lucky we produce documentarys called " On Track" to try and fool the masses.

I'm not buying it
 
The Rusty Trombone said:
For a club that has tried to sell its members that it was always going to invest heavily in last years draft they sure forgot that they offered Mitch Robinson
Jason Winderlich
Levi Greenwood &
(my foot is broken) Trengrove

Contracts . Yes that's right 4 players and we would of ended up with picks 33 and 55 ish and a couple of rookie picks

Wow . Lucky we produce documentarys called " On Track" to try and fool the masses.

I'm not buying it
Click to expand...
Free
Free
Pick 33
Pick downgrade
 
The Rusty Trombone said:
For a club that has tried to sell its members that it was always going to invest heavily in last years draft they sure forgot that they offered Mitch Robinson
Jason Winderlich
Levi Greenwood &
(my foot is broken) Trengrove

Contracts . Yes that's right 4 players and we would of ended up with picks 33 and 55 ish and a couple of rookie picks

Wow . Lucky we produce documentarys called " On Track" to try and fool the masses.

I'm not buying it
Click to expand...
We never offered Robbo a contract.
 
_EAD_ said:
View attachment 124740

2 weeks into the season and after a poor game against the Dogs the what is wrong with the club and sack the coach threads have surfaced again.

People talk about the drafting and how we only seem to go after battlers, well we recruited Menadue Drummond Butler Short & Castagna who all bring speed and good skills to the table. The problem is that outside of Drummond they are all 19 or younger and not physically ready to come in and play AFL week after week, unless of course everyone would be happy in us going from a top 8 contender to a bottom 6 side.

In the side itself we've brought in McIntosh & Hunt to ad speed. If not for injury to Deledio & Edwards we saw against Carlton that we look a much quicker side than we did at any time last season. Add 2-3 of those 1st year kids to the side over the rest of this season & next season and the speed factor goes up again.

Like the Sack Hardwick thread I have no doubt that had we won on Saturday afternoon we'd not be reading these types of threads. Be interesting if we win 8-10 of the next 12 games I do wonder if we'll see the same posters currently sinking the slipper in praising Hardwick for turning thinks around as the season progressed, then again I doubt it.
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This bolded part is silly.

If we hadn't lost to the Dogs, and we'd beaten them by 50 or 60 points like we should have, given the poor quality of that football club, there wouldn't be a reason to call Hardwick out.

The reason people are making these types of calls, is because we DON'T perform in these types of matches. OBVIOUSLY if we performed well people wouldn't be slagging Dimma, because they wouldn't have a bloody reason to, would they?

People are on the #sackhardwick bandwagon because of the fact that we're NOT performing up to the standard that we expect of this list.

If we win 8 out of the next 10 matches, and Dimma starts doing things right and shows the capacity to use critical thinking on match day, and the ability to turn a match around that we're losing in, I'd be all for him sticking around. But the problem is, we never see it from him, and even now I think back to all the times in the past couple of years that I've defended him, I've still had the following thoughts to myself:

If we're in-front by 15 or 20 points during say, the 3rd quarter, there's still a massive chance we could drop this game.
If we're behind by 15 or 20 points during the 3rd quarter, I already know the game's over.

You might think I'm being dramatic with those statements, but seriously, ask yourself: when was the last time that Richmond was trailing by a relatively small margin in a match during a 2nd or 3rd quarter, and you thought to yourself "yeah we're still a huge chance to win this"? For me, I've NEVER had that thought under Hardwick, because you just know that we won't actually get the result.

The Western Bulldogs and Melbourne games last year are a great example of this, as well as the game on Saturday. Last year's game against the Bulldogs, we're like 37 points down and come charging back, yet we all knew we weren't gonna win. And the game against Melbourne last year, we draw within a kick of the Demons with all the momentum in the final quarter, and yet somehow you always knew we were gonna lose.

And * it, the Elimination Final against Carlton. Despite being 26 points up at half time, and then 32 points up early in the 3rd, you just ******* KNEW that Carlton were gonna come back, and you KNEW that we were in trouble when they did. And then again in that match, in the final quarter when Maric kicked that goal, and it was back to 4 points... it was a great moment, but you still KNEW that it wouldn't get us over the line.

It's an instinct thing. And deep down every single Richmond supporter knows what I am talking about. I love this club to death, and I will never stop supporting it, but I also don't ever see us having any ultimate success until we get rid of this "losing" instinct that the club has. Dimma isn't the man to change it, he's done his best, but he doesn't have the "never say die" mongrel attitude that is required to turn this club around.

When a team like Hawthorn or Sydney is down in a match like I have just described, you know that they're every chance they will come out and change the match in a quarter of footy. No such confidence with a team like Richmond, and by now, we should be at a stage where we can have that confidence, at the very least against a team such as the Western Bulldogs.
 
ReaperX said:
This bolded part is silly.

If we hadn't lost to the Dogs, and we'd beaten them by 50 or 60 points like we should have, given the poor quality of that football club, there wouldn't be a reason to call Hardwick out.

The reason people are making these types of calls, is because we DON'T perform in these types of matches. OBVIOUSLY if we performed well people wouldn't be slagging Dimma, because they wouldn't have a bloody reason to, would they?

People are on the #sackhardwick bandwagon because of the fact that we're NOT performing up to the standard that we expect of this list.

If we win 8 out of the next 10 matches, and Dimma starts doing things right and shows the capacity to use critical thinking on match day, and the ability to turn a match around that we're losing in, I'd be all for him sticking around. But the problem is, we never see it from him, and even now I think back to all the times in the past couple of years that I've defended him, I've still had the following thoughts to myself:

If we're in-front by 15 or 20 points during say, the 3rd quarter, there's still a massive chance we could drop this game.
If we're behind by 15 or 20 points during the 3rd quarter, I already know the game's over.

You might think I'm being dramatic with those statements, but seriously, ask yourself: when was the last time that Richmond was trailing by a relatively small margin in a match during a 2nd or 3rd quarter, and you thought to yourself "yeah we're still a huge chance to win this"? For me, I've NEVER had that thought under Hardwick, because you just know that we won't actually get the result.

The Western Bulldogs and Melbourne games last year are a great example of this, as well as the game on Saturday. Last year's game against the Bulldogs, we're like 37 points down and come charging back, yet we all knew we weren't gonna win. And the game against Melbourne last year, we draw within a kick of the Demons with all the momentum in the final quarter, and yet somehow you always knew we were gonna lose.

And **** it, the Elimination Final against Carlton. Despite being 26 points up at half time, and then 32 points up early in the 3rd, you just ******* KNEW that Carlton were gonna come back, and you KNEW that we were in trouble when they did. And then again in that match, in the final quarter when Maric kicked that goal, and it was back to 4 points... it was a great moment, but you still KNEW that it wouldn't get us over the line.

It's an instinct thing. And deep down every single Richmond supporter knows what I am talking about. I love this club to death, and I will never stop supporting it, but I also don't ever see us having any ultimate success until we get rid of this "losing" instinct that the club has. Dimma isn't the man to change it, he's done his best, but he doesn't have the "never say die" mongrel attitude that is required to turn this club around.

When a team like Hawthorn or Sydney is down in a match like I have just described, you know that they're every chance they will come out and change the match in a quarter of footy. No such confidence with a team like Richmond, and by now, we should be at a stage where we can have that confidence, at the very least against a team such as the Western Bulldogs.
Click to expand...

My man you summed up my feelings i've had for the last 3 year's or so well done. 1st game when carlton was 26 point's up my mind was going here we go again same poo diff season. When we won i was happy cause we played poo but somehow we ended up winning like good team's do. But watching the dogs game conclusion was same poo diff season. Now i don't know who do blame player's coaches but whatever the problem is it needs fixing and fast.
Every year lately we hear the same old sounds. We can't tackle our forward line is dysfunctional,we can't hit target's we don't chase hard enough. And we hear from coach we know the problem will fix it! when ? we have been hearing this 3 year's running. Afl is a big fan of the tigs they try there hardest giving us 3 soft draws running they and the loyal fan's need to be given something back if the current hierarchy can't see this then it's time to go and give someone else a chance as i feel we already have lost another 6 season's.
 
ReaperX said:
This bolded part is silly.

If we hadn't lost to the Dogs, and we'd beaten them by 50 or 60 points like we should have, given the poor quality of that football club, there wouldn't be a reason to call Hardwick out.

The reason people are making these types of calls, is because we DON'T perform in these types of matches. OBVIOUSLY if we performed well people wouldn't be slagging Dimma, because they wouldn't have a bloody reason to, would they?

People are on the #sackhardwick bandwagon because of the fact that we're NOT performing up to the standard that we expect of this list.

If we win 8 out of the next 10 matches, and Dimma starts doing things right and shows the capacity to use critical thinking on match day, and the ability to turn a match around that we're losing in, I'd be all for him sticking around. But the problem is, we never see it from him, and even now I think back to all the times in the past couple of years that I've defended him, I've still had the following thoughts to myself:

If we're in-front by 15 or 20 points during say, the 3rd quarter, there's still a massive chance we could drop this game.
If we're behind by 15 or 20 points during the 3rd quarter, I already know the game's over.

You might think I'm being dramatic with those statements, but seriously, ask yourself: when was the last time that Richmond was trailing by a relatively small margin in a match during a 2nd or 3rd quarter, and you thought to yourself "yeah we're still a huge chance to win this"? For me, I've NEVER had that thought under Hardwick, because you just know that we won't actually get the result.

The Western Bulldogs and Melbourne games last year are a great example of this, as well as the game on Saturday. Last year's game against the Bulldogs, we're like 37 points down and come charging back, yet we all knew we weren't gonna win. And the game against Melbourne last year, we draw within a kick of the Demons with all the momentum in the final quarter, and yet somehow you always knew we were gonna lose.

And **** it, the Elimination Final against Carlton. Despite being 26 points up at half time, and then 32 points up early in the 3rd, you just ******* KNEW that Carlton were gonna come back, and you KNEW that we were in trouble when they did. And then again in that match, in the final quarter when Maric kicked that goal, and it was back to 4 points... it was a great moment, but you still KNEW that it wouldn't get us over the line.

It's an instinct thing. And deep down every single Richmond supporter knows what I am talking about. I love this club to death, and I will never stop supporting it, but I also don't ever see us having any ultimate success until we get rid of this "losing" instinct that the club has. Dimma isn't the man to change it, he's done his best, but he doesn't have the "never say die" mongrel attitude that is required to turn this club around.

When a team like Hawthorn or Sydney is down in a match like I have just described, you know that they're every chance they will come out and change the match in a quarter of footy. No such confidence with a team like Richmond, and by now, we should be at a stage where we can have that confidence, at the very least against a team such as the Western Bulldogs.
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As I said in another thread, Hardwick and the recruiting team have gone out and recruited the type of players that we were all calling for last year, i.e. quick skilled players, to change the make up of the side. Unfortunately for some those players aren't ready to be thrust into the AFL yet as they don't have the physical attributes to allow them to compete.

Maybe you're right, maybe Hardwick isn't the man to take us to the promised land, but surely we owe him the chance to see how things go when he does get the ability to coach the side with the changes to the 22 that are in the works. As I said elsewhere I believe that we're going to have a year where we take a step back and miss the finals as we look to reboot the side/list that will give us the ability to go further than the first week of the finals. Like everyone else who supports this club I want to see us succeed and for mine the coach who took us to our first back to back finals appearances in 40 years deserves the chance to see if he can take us further than he has so far.
 

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TheUndertaker said:
What are our big problems?

*Drafting
The club continues to draft players that fit Damien Hardwick's mould.

*Damien Hardwick's Mould
A player that battles but doesn't *star*.

*Lack of *stars*
Players that have slipped through during the draft to other clubs when we've been in position to get them. How many times can you miss out of a Nat Fyfe, Lance Franklin, Dyson Heppell, Ollie Wines, etc, and think that you can get away with that bullshit?

*Bullshit
The consistent selection of completely average footballers that are beginning to fill our list.

*Our List
It used to be one with huge upside, thanks largely to players like Astbury, Rance, Griffiths, Ellis, Vlastuin. How it's gotten to the point where our supporters are *hoping* that Thomas is elevated from the rookie list is beyond me.

*VFL/SANFL players
Hello, the draft isn't ******* compromised now. Why are we continually picking players like Lloyd, Gordon, Lambert, Morris over and over again. Why hasn't Lennon, Elton (didn't Elton KILL it during preseason?) gotten games. Why is Kane Lambert (a player who's been in the door for 3 months) playing over guys who've been on the list for 3-4 years. On top of that, we're playing rejects, everywhere.

*Rejects
A player that has been released from another club, i.e., Hunt, Petterd, Gordon. These guys might have some good games, but they are bringing down the overall potential and quality of our list. One mans trash is another mans treasure, but when you lose to a second game coach against a side that's incredibly young, the blowtorch is amplified.

*The Blowtorch
Dustin Martin played s**t last week. Inconsistent. Brandon Ellis isn't as influential as he should be. Wasn't Hampson brought into our club in exchange for a second round pick? When Carlton are outsmarting you on the drafting/trading table, you know there are deep underlying problems. What the hell is going on with Trent Cotchin? What's up with these dinky 20 metre kicks and these cheap possessions? I'm perplexed. Grimes gets a golden ride on this forum, he's inability to impose himself on the contest and actually 'create' is uninspiring. It's almost as frustrating as our injuries.

*Injuries
Nathan Foley in my mind has one large asterisk next to his name. He's playing 75% and he's making a great career of it at Richmond! David Astbury gets injured, Deledio is beginning to be injury prone, Chris Knights was signed and probably strained his wrist putting pen to paper.

*Paper
Alex Rance is easily our best player, I called it last year. Now he's the only player not signed yet. Interesting. It's quite interesting that our club is so 'conservative' with their list management that they feel they need to retain most of this list, rather than expand and build on it. Why haven't we managed to attract Mitch Clark, Eddie Betts, Kurt Tippett, Dom Tyson (who ******* barracks for Richmond) etc? There's no excitement, everything being done through our list management is boring and depressing. We're not attracting big stars, we're barely keeping our own. **** me sideways if Dylan Shiel resigns, because if we can't attract that goose while he's dating Choco's daughter, we can't attract anyone.

What next?

Well we're seeing a very vital stage of our development as a club now.

Stagnation.

Other football clubs are climbing over the top of us, we're swimming in the middle of the pool. The damage was done during preseason, every club made inroads to improve their list, their coaching staff, Richmond? ******* jack s**t. Hired Ben Rutten and Kane Lambert, **** me dead, what's that gonna ******* do???? We're reliant on our current list to develop and get better, when every other club is doing the same +++ they are adding more to their list.

Seeing Port breeze past us last year was sad, now the Doggies are doing it, the Crows are showing signs, Brisbane has potential. These teams were defeated by our club 1-2 years ago, they're passing us by right now and we're a mile away from the true contenders of Hawthorn, Sydney and Fremantle.

Oh and **** Essesnon, another club that's going to sail right past us this year.

One win won't do it for me, we've got a 6-7 week stretch where we play real quality teams, our season will be toasted by the halfway point if we play this bullshit football that we've been playing the last 6/8 quarters.
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Spot on couldnt of said it better
 
ReaperX said:
I tried creating my own thread to express my opinion, but it was shut by the mods because it wasn't positive or something, so I'll give my thoughts here.

The players don't care about the jumper, they only care about their wallets.

Damian Hardwick is incapable of making this team care about the jumper.

The list has the talent required to be a flag threat, but the club doesn't have the necessary attitude or commitment to make it happen.

Following what was, in my opinion, the worst loss for this football club in 20 years last week against the Bottom 4 Bulldogs, the players should have their match payments removed if they fail to win.

This club accepts mediocrity, it accepts just being thereabouts.

It must start to accept only one thing - premierships. Everything else is a fail.

You win the premiership, the club gets an A.
You don't win the premiership, the club gets an F.
You win a game of footy, the players get paid.
You lose a game of footy, the players don't get paid.

Bring this model in, and we'd win a premiership with the list this year, because whilst the players still wouldn't be playing for the jumper (nothing will make them do this), they would be playing for their livelihood, and they would stop at nothing to get to every contest, and absolutely monster any opposition, because purely and simply, if they didn't they'd have no money.

It would never happen in today's game, I get that. But seriously, I can't see any other way we win a flag in the next 30 years. The players don't care, the coach doesn't care. It's just a job to them.

It's not their lifeblood. The RFC is their employer, not their life. If these players had as much passion as some of our fans, and if these players felt the same disgust that I (and many others) felt last week, good GOD they would come out this week and break records against the Lions.

Not gonna happen though, because the players, whilst they're good enough technically, they simply do not care.
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Takes more than motivation and desperation to win the flag.
 
leekok said:
Takes more than motivation and desperation to win the flag.
Click to expand...

We have what it takes from a talent and list perspective though, that's my point. If this list could get a fire under their belly, they could do/be anything.

We aren't a Western Bulldogs or a St. Kilda, who are both playing on a stack of heart and passion, but have a lack of real actual talent.

We're much more like Gold Coast, heaps of talent but not playing with the right attitude.
 
The irony for me is that people have this perception that, to quote the OP, "we're a team of battlers who don't star", when in-fact we're a team of stars who don't battle.

Deledio, Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt, Rance, Vlastuin, Conca, Edwards, B. Ellis, etc. They are all future/current stars of the competition, or at least they SHOULD be.

They just don't have a hard edge, which is why we need somebody in to replace Hardwick who can BRING a hard edge to them.
 
The Rusty Trombone said:
Please ??? Free
Click to expand...
That's just how Free Agency works, you don't give up a pick to get that player, which means you can still use that pick in the draft, which means the club is still invested in the draft, you're welcome
 
ReaperX said:
This bolded part is silly.

If we hadn't lost to the Dogs, and we'd beaten them by 50 or 60 points like we should have, given the poor quality of that football club, there wouldn't be a reason to call Hardwick out.

The reason people are making these types of calls, is because we DON'T perform in these types of matches. OBVIOUSLY if we performed well people wouldn't be slagging Dimma, because they wouldn't have a bloody reason to, would they?

People are on the #sackhardwick bandwagon because of the fact that we're NOT performing up to the standard that we expect of this list.

If we win 8 out of the next 10 matches, and Dimma starts doing things right and shows the capacity to use critical thinking on match day, and the ability to turn a match around that we're losing in, I'd be all for him sticking around. But the problem is, we never see it from him, and even now I think back to all the times in the past couple of years that I've defended him, I've still had the following thoughts to myself:

If we're in-front by 15 or 20 points during say, the 3rd quarter, there's still a massive chance we could drop this game.
If we're behind by 15 or 20 points during the 3rd quarter, I already know the game's over.

You might think I'm being dramatic with those statements, but seriously, ask yourself: when was the last time that Richmond was trailing by a relatively small margin in a match during a 2nd or 3rd quarter, and you thought to yourself "yeah we're still a huge chance to win this"? For me, I've NEVER had that thought under Hardwick, because you just know that we won't actually get the result.

The Western Bulldogs and Melbourne games last year are a great example of this, as well as the game on Saturday. Last year's game against the Bulldogs, we're like 37 points down and come charging back, yet we all knew we weren't gonna win. And the game against Melbourne last year, we draw within a kick of the Demons with all the momentum in the final quarter, and yet somehow you always knew we were gonna lose.

And **** it, the Elimination Final against Carlton. Despite being 26 points up at half time, and then 32 points up early in the 3rd, you just ******* KNEW that Carlton were gonna come back, and you KNEW that we were in trouble when they did. And then again in that match, in the final quarter when Maric kicked that goal, and it was back to 4 points... it was a great moment, but you still KNEW that it wouldn't get us over the line.

It's an instinct thing. And deep down every single Richmond supporter knows what I am talking about. I love this club to death, and I will never stop supporting it, but I also don't ever see us having any ultimate success until we get rid of this "losing" instinct that the club has. Dimma isn't the man to change it, he's done his best, but he doesn't have the "never say die" mongrel attitude that is required to turn this club around.

When a team like Hawthorn or Sydney is down in a match like I have just described, you know that they're every chance they will come out and change the match in a quarter of footy. No such confidence with a team like Richmond, and by now, we should be at a stage where we can have that confidence, at the very least against a team such as the Western Bulldogs.
Click to expand...


Well said - i for sure share your sentiment
 
Our list is tracking OK. We have come from a long way, way back. Also, one thing some need to get used to is that we are now forcing our kids to play huge chunks of game time in the VFL till there ready. Gone are the days we rush them back, just to satisfy the ferals. Look at kamdyn for a prime example. He comes into the side and has an impact. It was not to long ago, some on here, wrote him off and wanted him delisted.

Bottom line, its rnd 2. I will judge our list performance at rnd 12. Only then IMO can you really gauge "where our list is at".
 
Current squad that has played for the side this year:
B: Batchelor Chaplin Grimes
HB: Houli Rance Vlastuin
C: B.Ellis Grigg McIntosh
HF: Deledio Griffiths Martin
F: Edwards Riewoldt Lloyd
R: Maric Cotchin Miles
INT from: Newman Hunt Morris Gordon Lambert Petterd

Solid group of players but still missing that little bit of excitement and class, especially with Deledio & Edwards missing last weekend, their run, carry & skill was not replaced with the likes of Lambert & Petterd replacing them. We can't afford to be carrying the likes of Morris(up forward) Newman(anywhere), playing both Grimes and Batchelor isn't working as well as it could either, while the likes of Gordon Lloyd Grigg & Petterd are all serviceable types they should be relegated to the VFL and used as depth coverage not best 22 players as they simply aren't that good.

What I'd like to see between now and mid season is a gradual change towards the side below:

B: Morris Astbury Chaplin
HB: Houli Rance McIntosh
C: Conca Vlastuin B.Ellis
HF: Deledio Griffiths Martin
F: Edwards Riewoldt Vickery
R: Maric Cotchin Miles
INT: Hunt Knights C.Ellis Lennon

From the current squad out goes: Batchelor Grimes Grigg Lloyd Newman Gordon Lambert & Petterd. In comes: Astbury Conca Vickery Knights C.Ellis & Lennon.

Back line:
Forget reinventing the wheel with Morris, just put him down back in the lock down role that he made his name in. Sure he'll make the odd error, but I'll wear that if he can stop the likes of Ballantyne Betts and co. At FB is Astbury, IMO he is the cornerstone to our back 6, getting him to play on the oppositions bigger bodied KPF allows Chaplin to play as the roaming 3rd tall role which he does well. Across the HB line I have Houli Rance & McIntosh which sets up our rebound from the back line.

Midfield:
Cotchin Martin Deledio B.Ellis Miles Edwards Maric Conca Vlastuin Hunt Knights Lennon C.Ellis is a strong a midfield group as any. Hardness, ball winning ability, defensive accountability, X factor & speed are all covered with this group rotating through the middle and forward 50.

Forward line:
Riewoldt Griffiths & Vickery is the foundation of my forward line moving forward. I know many don't agree with this set up, but IMO it is still our best set up for success. 3 talls will spread the opposition back 6 thin and give us the ability to become less predictable(an issue that killed us last week). I'd also forget about playing a defensive forward. Doing so just has us playing 1 short. Instead I'd like to see us using our resting midfielders through the F50 as offensive threats that make the opposition concerned rather than us being concerned about them.

As you can see the list isn't in as bad a shape as some believe. It's just in need of some tinkering to get the mix right to take those steps forward we all want.
 
Ancient Tiger said:
The 3 biggest problems at Richmond:

1. We don't tackle anywhere near enough and thus we cannot put physical pressure on good teams.

2. Our midfielders don't run hard enough both ways. They should study Sydney mids work ethic. This also relates to the first point.

3. We don't play direct enough football. More possessions outside our 50m arc means more chances of mistakes and thus turnovers resulting in the opposition waltzing downfield and kicking easy goals.

Correct these three things and we are well on our way in being a regular finals side, irrespective of the personnel.
Click to expand...

Great post.

The thing that I dont understand is - we continually draft these "rejects" or "players in the mould of Hardwick" - shouldn't these players be playing as if every game is their last? Shouldn't they be out there risking head and skin (shin)???

Its pathetic. Its weak. Its soft. Its bruise free football. Its pathetic. Its not what I expected from Damien Hardwick. Its pathetic.
 
Every year for the past twenty seasons i continue to hear the club echo the words,
"We've had a big preseason"
These words stand for nothing if your list is
1 Not good enough
2 Not improving at a greater rate than the opposition

My biggest concern is yes we have improved ,but others have improved greater
The Dogs have passed us in the last two seasons so its obvious that some of the senior statesmen cannot cut it
and cannot take us from a middle of the road side to a top contender.
We should be now making way for the next generation to see if they can take us to the promised land
It is crucial to look at your whole list for many reasons.Some listed here which are important to me
1 are they good enough? if not then bye bye and fill void through drafting and trade at seasons end
2 development and opportunity
3 experience and leadership for the future

Two years of similar results should have been a concern to our footy dept,but nothing seems to
have changed.This was vindicated by Houli's line in the sand plea.:$
 
TigerImposter said:
Every year for the past twenty seasons i continue to hear the club echo the words,
"We've had a big preseason"
These words stand for nothing if your list is
1 Not good enough
2 Not improving at a greater rate than the opposition

My biggest concern is yes we have improved ,but others have improved greater
The Dogs have passed us in the last two seasons so its obvious that some of the senior statesmen cannot cut it
and cannot take us from a middle of the road side to a top contender.
We should be now making way for the next generation to see if they can take us to the promised land
It is crucial to look at your whole list for many reasons.Some listed here which are important to me
1 are they good enough? if not then bye bye and fill void through drafting and trade at seasons end
2 development and opportunity
3 experience and leadership for the future

Two years of similar results should have been a concern to our footy dept,but nothing seems to
have changed.This was vindicated by Houli's line in the sand plea.:$
Click to expand...

Good to see you posting again brother!
 
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