What is a pass mark for Essendon in 2015?

[eth-dog]

There is always a balance to all aspects imo. To have a better score power, the first thing that has give a little is the defensive aspects. So you may find, if the dons want better scoring power, they may be a little worse on the defence aspects.

That may be true, but I'm definitely a defence first man. Which is why I was happy when Knights got sacked.

And when they were winning premierships with Scarlett as well Geelongs defence was twice as good as the bombers current defence.

there is not a lot of logic in methdogs posts

Geelong's defence 4 years ago was better than Essendon's in 2014. Okay. How is that relevant at all? IEssendon's defence outperformed Geelong's in 2014. Yet you continue to bring up stuff from 4 years ago that has little to no relevance now.

I'm not the one using stuff from 4 years ago as an argument and throwing out personal insults. Maybe you know you're wrong?

 

[QuietB]

That may be true, but I'm definitely a defence first man. Which is why I was happy when Knights got sacked.

Geelong's defence 4 years ago was better than Essendon's in 2014. Okay. How is that relevant at all? IEssendon's defence outperformed Geelong's in 2014. Yet you continue to bring up stuff from 4 years ago that has little to no relevance now.

I'm not the one using stuff from 4 years ago as an argument and throwing out personal insults. Maybe you know you're wrong?

How is that relevant?

Geelongs defence is no longer great - it is not even close to what it once was. Enright is not the player he was, Scarlett is gone, Bartel spends less time there, Mackie has less support, etc. And Essendons defence is not substantially better than Geelongs current defence. So essendons defence is not great either.

For essendons defence to be considered great they need to get somewhere near the level Geelong were at 4-8 years ago and currently they are not close.

Like it or not this will be measured by actual results, ie. winning finals, winning premierships.

That is why Geelong 4 years ago is relevant. Essendon want to be great you need to benchmark against great.

 

[eth-dog]

How is that relevant?

Geelongs defence is no longer great - it is not even close to what it once was. Enright is not the player he was, Scarlett is gone, Bartel spends less time there, Mackie has less support, etc. And Essendons defence is not substantially better than Geelongs current defence. So essendons defence is not great either.

For essendons defence to be considered great they need to get somewhere near the level Geelong were at 4-8 years ago and currently they are not close.

Like it or not this will be measured by actual results, ie. winning finals, winning premierships.

That is why Geelong 4 years ago is relevant. Essendon want to be great you need to benchmark against great.

It's completely irrelevant because you're using Geelong's defence 4 years ago as a reason to why their defence is better now. Essendon's defence this season was the 4th best in the AFL, to me that says it was a great defence.

Your arguments are flawed and you've changed them because you've been caught out and shown to be a fool.

 

[QuietB]

It's completely irrelevant because you're using Geelong's defence 4 years ago as a reason to why their defence is better now. Essendon's defence this season was the 4th best in the AFL, to me that says it was a great defence.

Your arguments are flawed and you've changed them because you've been caught out and shown to be a fool.

Whatever. If the 4th best defence in the AFL for a single year is the benchmark for great then it is a pretty low bar.

 

[Moist Biscuit]

He's depth.

Hooker=Taylor
Hurley<Lonergan
Fletcher>Rivers
Baguley=Enright
Hibberd>Mackie
Dempsey>whoever's left

Geelong's back line wasn't great this season. Essendon's was top 4. Fletcher won't play every game. Gwilt comes in then. Funnily enough, people were saying that about Rivers when he went to Geelong.

Are you kidding? Taylor is the best key defender in the comp.
Hooker<Taylor
Hurley<Lonergan
Fletcher<Rivers
Baguley<Enright
Hibberd>Mackie

 

[222EB]

Are you kidding? Taylor is the best key defender in the comp.
Hooker<Taylor
Hurley<Lonergan
Fletcher<Rivers
Baguley<Enright
Hibberd>Mackie

Hooker<Taylor (Taylor still has it but Hooker's getting closer)
Hurley<Lonergan (Hurley's 2nd full yr in def will have him lineball with Lonergan shortly)
Fletcher=Rivers (Fletchers versatility keeps him equal with any third tall even at 40yo)
Baguley>Enright (Enright's no match for Bag's who is rarely beaten, closer to Dempsey nowadays)
Hibberd>Mackie (Mackie's still good but can't match Hibbo's all round game)

 

[Moist Biscuit]

Hooker<Taylor (Taylor still has it but Hooker's getting closer)
Hurley<Lonergan (Hurley's 2nd full yr in def will have him lineball with Lonergan shortly)
Fletcher=Rivers (Fletchers versatility keeps him equal with any third tall even at 40yo)
Baguley>Enright (Enright's no match for Bag's who is rarely beaten, closer to Dempsey nowadays)
Hibberd>Mackie (Mackie's still good but can't match Hibbo's all round game)

Enright a a 6 time all australian who still has it. Enright >Daylight>Baguley.

 

[Donakebab]

This bullshit thread has been going in circles for quite some time now. Season can't start soon enough.

 

[eastfreo75]

6th

 

[eth-dog]

Are you kidding? Taylor is the best key defender in the comp.
Hooker<Taylor
Hurley<Lonergan
Fletcher<Rivers
Baguley<Enright
Hibberd>Mackie

If Geelong's defenders are better, why did Essendon's outperform them in 2014?

 

[Moist Biscuit]

If Geelong's defenders are better, why did Essendon's outperform them in 2014?

How did Essendon's out perform them?

 

[eth-dog]

How did Essendon's out perform them?

Geelong conceded more points/game, goals/game, goals/inside 50 and marks inside 50 in comparison. Essendon literally outperformed them in every defensive stat last season.

 

[Doss]

This thread is on its last warning. One, it's going around in circles. Two, there's been plentiful trolling. Three, the name calling has to stop.

No more warnings.

 

[Jaeger]

Hawthorn's strength lies in the opposite direction. Their defence is overrated, and statistically Essendon beat them in that area.

So you think your best back line is better than

Gibson, Lake, Stratton
Birchall, Frawley, Hodge/Mitchell/Burgoyne

Surely not.

Last year when you had numbers behind the ball and played keepings off it worked well, particularly in the early rounds and was difficult to break down. I wonder if Hird is planning on developing that more this year or doing something else his own way.

I guess that's another factor with Essendon this year - how much of what Bomber had them doing last year will change under Hird

 

[theflea]

That may be true, but I'm definitely a defence first man. Which is why I was happy when Knights got sacked.

Defence first yes, but to win flags you also need to score as well, which means a balance which is what I said. I also didn't mean defence is thrown out the door either.

 

[eth-dog]

So you think your best back line is better than

Gibson, Lake, Stratton
Birchall, Frawley, Hodge/Mitchell/Burgoyne

Surely not.

Last year when you had numbers behind the ball and played keepings off it worked well, particularly in the early rounds and was difficult to break down. I wonder if Hird is planning on developing that more this year or doing something else his own way.

I guess that's another factor with Essendon this year - how much of what Bomber had them doing last year will change under Hird

Hawthorn's defence is overrated. People say it's the best in the league, but 5 other teams outperformed them in 2014. Also Essendon didn't have numbers behind the ball early on, that's the main reason we let Hawthorn kick the last 2 goals to lose that game.

 

[andrew coombs]

Hawthorn's defence is overrated. People say it's the best in the league, but 5 other teams outperformed them in 2014. Also Essendon didn't have numbers behind the ball early on, that's the main reason we let Hawthorn kick the last 2 goals to lose that game.

Hawthorns best defence isn't overrated. Gibson,Lake and Statton al missed large chunks of the season ( often at the same time ) which had an obvious impact on their ability to contain opposition attacks. When a bloke like Cheney is standing Hawkins or Tippett there is the very real danger of the side conceding more goals. Given the importance of Birchall,Suckling,Burgoyne,Duryea..even Litherland when he was there, in providing the type of quick ball movement that is systematic in the teams game style I would have thought the back line is far from overrated. Back them in against any other defence.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Hawthorns best defence isn't overrated. Gibson,Lake and Statton al missed large chunks of the season ( often at the same time ) which had an obvious impact on their ability to contain opposition attacks. When a bloke like Cheney is standing Hawkins or Tippett there is the very real danger of the side conceding more goals. Given the importance of Birchall,Suckling,Burgoyne,Duryea..even Litherland when he was there, in providing the type of quick ball movement that is systematic in the teams game style I would have thought the back line is far from overrated. Back them in against any other defence.

Agree

You don't win a flag without a very good defence. I think eth-dog even you would have to concede that point.

 

[Doss]

Hawthorn have a very good defence. Not sure how it can be claimed otherwise, unless you're blinded by one-eyed hatred.

A bit like the person claiming earlier that Baguley isn't a defender's butt crack, mind you.

 

[QuietB]

Hawthorn's defence is overrated. People say it's the best in the league, but 5 other teams outperformed them in 2014. Also Essendon didn't have numbers behind the ball early on, that's the main reason we let Hawthorn kick the last 2 goals to lose that game.

I cannot believe that you think points against is the sole way to determine who has the best defence

 

[Zerg]

I cannot believe that you think points against is the sole way to determine who has the best defence

These days there is no such thing as best defense, as in the best defensive 6, as it's all about the defensive pressure provided by the rest of the side.

No defense can stand up when the opposition is allowed easy ball and can launch attack after attack under little pressure.
It's a team defensive mindset with players who are willing to run both ways. That's one of the reasons why Collingwood have slipped as they don't have many that will do that anymore.

 

[Big_Luch]

I cannot believe that you think points against is the sole way to determine who has the best defence

also need to factor in how many points you score to. Higher scoring teams will concede more points..doesn't mean your back line has not performed. Hence if you looked at % there was a 35% difference between Essendon and the Hawks.

 

[eth-dog]

Hawthorns best defence isn't overrated. Gibson,Lake and Statton al missed large chunks of the season ( often at the same time ) which had an obvious impact on their ability to contain opposition attacks. When a bloke like Cheney is standing Hawkins or Tippett there is the very real danger of the side conceding more goals. Given the importance of Birchall,Suckling,Burgoyne,Duryea..even Litherland when he was there, in providing the type of quick ball movement that is systematic in the teams game style I would have thought the back line is far from overrated. Back them in against any other defence.

Their defence is good. Not top 4, but top 8. Their ball movement all around the ground is good. I just don't understand why everyone talks it up around the same level of Fremantle, Sydney, Port Adelaide who all significantly outperformed them in 2014, especially considering Port's CHB was their second ruck and whenever Lobbe needed a break they disrupted that defensive structure. Hawthorn's defence shouldn't be talked about among that group. Like Jay Schulz shouldn't be talked about among the likes of Buddy, Roughy, Hawkins and Riewoldt.

Agree

You don't win a flag without a very good defence. I think eth-dog even you would have to concede that point.

You need a good defence to win the flag. Hawthorn's was good. But personally I think that Freo, Sydney, Port, Essendon and North's back 6 are better.

Hawthorn have a very good defence. Not sure how it can be claimed otherwise, unless you're blinded by one-eyed hatred.

A bit like the person claiming earlier that Baguley isn't a defender's butt crack, mind you.

Overrated doesn't necessarily mean bad Doss. Their defence is good. Not top 4, but top 8. Much like I rate Essendon's midfield.

I cannot believe that you think points against is the sole way to determine who has the best defence

I don't. I use the other statistics available to me. Sydney, Fremantle, Port, Essendon and North Melbourne had less goals/game, less goals/inside 50, less marks/inside 50 and goals/marks inside 50 conceded in comparison to Hawthorn. They're the statistics I use to determine who has the best defence.

also need to factor in how many points you score to. Higher scoring teams will concede more points..doesn't mean your back line has not performed. Hence if you looked at % there was a 35% difference between Essendon and the Hawks.

What a load of s**t. Sydney had the best defence and 4th attack in 2014. Port were 3rd in defence and 2nd in attack. Geelong were 4th in defence and 2nd in attack in 2014. Hawthorn's attack is miles ahead of Essendon's, that's why one won the flag and the other only finished top 8.

 

[Doss]

I disagree. It's a top 4 defence.

 

[QuietB]

I don't. I use the other statistics available to me. Sydney, Fremantle, Port, Essendon and North Melbourne had less goals/game, less goals/inside 50, less marks/inside 50 and goals/marks inside 50 conceded in comparison to Hawthorn. They're the statistics I use to determine who has the best defence.

What a load of s**t. Sydney had the best defence and 4th attack in 2014. Port were 3rd in defence and 2nd in attack. Geelong were 4th in defence and 2nd in attack in 2014. Hawthorn's attack is miles ahead of Essendon's, that's why one won the flag and the other only finished top 8.

So how do you adjust your stats for the fact Gibson missed 8 games, Lake missed 14 games, Stratton missed 10, Spangher missed 10. That might have a minor effect on your points against, goals, marks inside 50 etc. When Kyle Cheney is standing Tom Hawkins there are going to be marks inside 50 and goals.

Also, Big_Luch post is completely correct. Whilst Essendon were flooding and choking the s**t out of their opposition, unable to kick more than 10 goals for 6 weeks in a row at one point including games against St Kilda, the Lions, dogs and Collingwood, the hawks kicked 144 goals more than Essendon. 144! Take out the GF and PF it is 108 goals more than Essendon or 4.7 a week

The Hawks don't need to defend for their lives during the season when they are blowing teams off the park. Better just save your bodies and save your energy. It is a completely different dynamic.

I would agree that the Hawks defence was not that great a year or two ago. But right now with the addition of Frawley it is eons ahead of Essendon's and pretty comfortably in the top 1 or 2 in the league. Lake (multiple AA), Gibson, Burgoyne (AA), Birchall (AA), Stratton, Frawley (AA) and take your pick from Hodge, Duryea, Suckling etc. for the others rotating through. That is an elite defence.