Opinion What is the main issue?

[tigs2010]

I'm also not talking about one game. We never went hard against GC until the end, same with the dogs and the pies. As for the blues, that was the prototype carlton chokefest we are so familiar with (this is the anomaly game, but we all know why it goes the way it does)

Agree on the last, and this is actually what I consider running to exhaustion, our guys just don't do it, and most don't even run both ways.

We refuse to take the game on and take the same risks we did in the past. I'd give my left nut to know what has changed in their thinking to stop this - its like watching the team under Wally again

I was at the GC game. We didn't lose through a lack of effort. Blokes were running on the spot and looked to be trying to sprint. They are at the level where they believe they can't go further. We often can't go with Carlton when they revert to a Ratten style chaos game plan. Their speedsters kill us.

I'd imagine it's the pressure of expectation. THis club has always failed at it. No idea what to do about it. We have a different coach, different players. The ones running to position are the new blokes. Gordon/Lloyd/Griff even Astbury is getting better at it.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I was at the GC game. We didn't lose through a lack of effort. Blokes were running on the spot and looked to be trying to sprint. They are at the level where they believe they can't go further. We often can't go with Carlton when they revert to a Ratten style chaos game plan. Their speedsters kill us.

I'd imagine it's the pressure of expectation. THis club has always failed at it. No idea what to do about it. We have a different coach, different players. The ones running to position are the new blokes. Gordon/Lloyd/Griff even Astbury is getting better at it.

So they had no ability for speed in the first half. , but they had it in the second? Unless they are on the juice, this isn't possible. And them holding back isn't possible because from your own view they were going flat out

 

[tigs2010]

So they had no ability for speed in the first half. , but they had it in the second? Unless they are on the juice, this isn't possible. And them holding back isn't possible because from your own view they were going flat out

Which game are you talking about? The GC game we didn't have speed in the second half. We were good for about the first 2 mins of the first and first 5-10 of the last.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Which game are you talking about? The GC game we didn't have speed in the second half. We were good for about the first 2 mins of the first and first 5-10 of the last.

And we had speed in the last, we weren't overtaking them, but we weren't following them around like tourists anymore either.

They found something more, which they shouldn't have been able to do if they were going flat out all game, ESP with so few rotations

 

[tigs2010]

And we had speed in the last, we weren't overtaking them, but we weren't following them around like tourists anymore either.

They found something more, which they shouldn't have been able to do if they were going flat out all game, ESP with so few rotations

That lasted all of about 5 minutes after having a break. The other team were also a man down for almost an entire game, so had only 2 on the bench. Could have contributed. In the end they steam rolled us again with hard running.

One thing I've found interesting is Port talking up their fitness. Is their fitness that good or has the club just kept pumping it up over and over to the point they believe they can run through brick walls?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

That lasted all of about 5 minutes after having a break. The other team were also a man down for almost an entire game, so had only 2 on the bench. Could have contributed. In the end they steam rolled us again with hard running.

One thing I've found interesting is Port talking up their fitness. Is their fitness that good or has the club just kept pumping it up over and over to the point they believe they can run through brick walls?

We'll agree to disagree then. I just find it a massive cop out to blame the fitness guy, when it's the same guy with the same program from 2013 when this wasn't an issue

 

[theflea]

That's not by design IMO though. We are going down the flanks IMO because we are back to Wally's gameplay, and with no one prepared to present in the middle, it means crab crawling along the safety of the boundary line

I disagree in that there is NO run from behind, no intent to run into space, no intent to switch across the ground at all. That cant be all in the head imo.

 

[tigs2010]

We'll agree to disagree then. I just find it a massive cop out to blame the fitness guy, when it's the same guy with the same program from 2013 when this wasn't an issue

We did have this issue in games last year though. Playing well makes it easier to run hard though. It's only early season and probably need a whole season to judge something like this anyway. As fans we can never know what sort of phase we are in, unless the club tells us.

 

[theflea]

6. No movement forward of the ball eventually forcing the ball carrier to kick to a congested ... co tested situation.
7. Over use of the ball around stoppages putting everyone under pressure....

Just on point 7. We never try get the ball out of the immediate stoppage with handball, but try to do it in tight which is the problem.

 

[theflea]

It will be interesting to see how Lloyd goes over the next few weeks --the more impact he has, the more opposition clubs will do to curb him, and that's when we'll get a better gauge of his ability at AFL level.

Other than that, two comments:

I like BG at CHF --and with his kicking the CHF arc extends a LONG way out. I've largely gone off TV and it's perhaps time to start thinking of given BG a run as our second forward tall.

On the general question: "What's the main issue?" I have to say that I don't think it's talent. We play well enough when we're up and about, we're just not up and about consistently enough. That means the problem must be mental. The game against Collingwood showed, I think, that the guys aren't prepared to commit to the contest or, given the way they largely hung Cotch out to dry, to one another. We've got a few guys who are good outside players, but as soon as they lack space and time don't seem to have enough mongrel to win a dogfight over the footy.

We played better when we only had 2 tall fwds.

 

[theflea]

We'll agree to disagree then. I just find it a massive cop out to blame the fitness guy, when it's the same guy with the same program from 2013 when this wasn't an issue

Imo we did have this issue. When we lost last year we just couldn't keep up. When we won we still didn't really run the games out and we should have hammered some teams but slowed up and cruised. I think our fitness is no where near the top teams.

 

[tigs2010]

We played better when we only had 2 tall fwds.

We need an athletic 191-193cm forward to pair with Jack/Griff.

 

[theflea]

We need an athletic 191-193cm forward to pair with Jack/Griff.

This is why Mcguane worked because he could run. Lennon could be that player.

 

[Tiger Titus]

I think there's a lot of overthinking going on here. Here's my take:

Our midfield this year is worse than our midfield last year.

In my mind it's that simple, looking at the team from last year:

Missing from the middle:
Maric
Tuck
Deledio
White

Definitely in worse form this year than last year:
Ellis
Vlastuin
Edwards
Grigg

Arguably in worse form this year than last year:
Cotchin
Jackson
Conca
Foley

New faces:
Hampson
Thomas
Gordon

Do the new faces look anywhere near the quality of the blokes that are out? Are any of our mids playing better now than they did last year? My answer to both of those questions is no. No wonder Collingwood made our mids look second rate - they are.

There's no easy solution, some players just need to step up in the middle, and some we'll just have to wait until they're fit.

 

[tigs2010]

This is why Mcguane worked because he could run. Lennon could be that player.

I like the idea off Lennon off HB. Maybe we could play Lids off HB and let Lennon play forward.

 

[GIVELIDSTHEFOOTY]

It's plain and simple not enough mongrels when our skipper is getting smashed where is the so called tough guy with tattooooo's on his neck.And others Grigg runs past the the opposition who have the pill and Houli not comiting the the ball and running away to pick a player not even in the contest.Newman allways going backwards holding up our moves forward.Grimes droping SHITE pie we don't have and real tough guys beside Maric and the includes King there is problem within the player group besides last year we have had this problem for years they just have to stop dropping there heads and work harder it's easy to fall to the ground(Grigg) it's not my problem then.A 20 year member who has had enough of these prima-donnas i'll be back when Houli,Grigg & Newman r playing seconds.

 

[BearMe]

Main problem, Hardwick, he is a good second fiddle coach able to identify dead wood however he's coaching leaves a lot to be desired. Cannot identify players ability and coach to there strengths, seams to want to play a style in which we are not able to execute and play. He needs to adapt he's own style to our side ability and go from there, as new players come in the side then modify to suit but he's inability to foresee moves as being reactive coach is of concern while he's in the main seat. I can not even recall any tiger supporters or the media say Tigers got up because Hardwick made a move? Sorry Dimma rethink where your at or good guy the heat will come.

 

[Tiger71]

Main issue for me, is that its not that we are slow, it looks that way but even last year in the games white did not play we were considered fast. We look slow its because for some reason our players are thinking to much when they have the ball. It must be a coaching instruction but its killed our instinctive play and now has shattered out confidence.

The other big thing for me is that we are and it kills me to say it, a soft side. Our tackles are to easily broken, Chaplin being brushed aside by a pie player half is size is proof of that. half of our fumbles really were caused because our players were afraid to get a hit and go when it was there turn.

To fix this Hardwick needs to make a statement. Get our confidence back by putting this back on the players/leaders and get them to attack a match like its there last. the ones that done, drop.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Arguably in worse form this year than last year:
Cotchin
Jackson
Conca
Foley

.

Cotchin and Conca have been better than last year.

 

[Capitano_Cotch]

A big concern for me, is our foot skills.
In 2012, we did not make finals, however the speed and precision in which we were moving the ball around the ground by foot was admirable.
Last year, certain players foot skills started to drop off, however we were still good enough to win games and ultimately play finals.
This year has been shambolic. Our better players by foot can not hit targets.
Cotchin's kicking in the past 12 months has gone downhill big time.
Martin's foot skills are also not very good in my opinion, although his technique and ability to penetrate are fantastic.

Too many players on our list who are average by foot and it isn't good enough.

 

[Tiger Titus]

Cotchin and Conca have been better than last year.

I put them in the arguable category. I think Cotchin has been going tick-tock, good game-bad game. I think last year we were getting Cotchin at 80-90% every game rather than one game 60%, then 100%, then 70%, then 95%. Conca hasn't been bad, but I think we both agree he can be better. Still getting up to speed after injury (as is Jackson).

Are you happy with their output at present?

 

[theflea]

I like the idea off Lennon off HB. Maybe we could play Lids off HB and let Lennon play forward.

Either/ or and maybe throw in Madonna as well.

 

[Kapital city TIGER]

I think there's a lot of overthinking going on here. Here's my take:

Our midfield this year is worse than our midfield last year.

In my mind it's that simple, looking at the team from last year:

Missing from the middle:
Maric
Tuck
Deledio
White

Definitely in worse form this year than last year:
Ellis
Vlastuin
Edwards
Grigg

Arguably in worse form this year than last year:
Cotchin
Jackson
Conca
Foley

New faces:
Hampson
Thomas
Gordon

Do the new faces look anywhere near the quality of the blokes that are out? Are any of our mids playing better now than they did last year? My answer to both of those questions is no. No wonder Collingwood made our mids look second rate - they are.

There's no easy solution, some players just need to step up in the middle, and some we'll just have to wait until they're fit.

A point well made and a big part of it.
I'd only disagree as to the 'arguably' all bar Cotch been out of form / underdone
I don't mind the obvious positional work being done, Jacks up the ground role will give Viks and Griff a bit of space to develop paying deep, and as he has trimmed down iianm stared work for upfield role preseason.
Sure Vik has been a spud, but getting dragged just part of the process, reckon will continue with it for a solid block of half the season at least. Similarly, Martin, we know he is a weapon, but he had been deplorable defensively. Needs to be similarly threatening without the ball and this will require some hard work and, unless he magically develops the skills time improvement and, until acceptable, pain.

The same might be said for leaving McCaffer on Cotch, like Lids, needs to be able to work off a tag, find a way, work at it. Payers don't just decide to be untaggable.

What does concern me though is;
Flat footed out of defence,
Flat footed in defence at set play, ie facing a free, often it seems op will find some sneaky space whilst our guys stand around looking at the replay or something.
Lots of weak tackles/ hand waving without tackling / running with direct leaving ball carrier untroubled
Clearance work, Cotch taking over the hack it fwd role? Where's his lightning hands? Just no one presenting or taking on more extraction by instruction/?

 

[aislegi]

Please state what you believe our main issue is and how you think it needs to be corrected. Try keep it to one

We think it takes 16 people to score a goal. We pour everyone forward and, inevitably, someone will turn it over and the two players that weren't involved in trying to score a goal won't have a hope in hell of stopping the opposition slaughtering us on the rebound. Need to keep more players back to defend.

 

[Tiger68]

Having a defence that is wide open is our problem. We need our spare playing defence first footy. Ala Maxwell. Houli as the spare plays a purely offensive role. We also need our midfielders to run harder defensively.