grassrootsfooty
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With the ground swell increasing, what action will the SANFL take in relation to the two franchises who have joined our competition?
What will happen with the two plastic franchises?
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AJJPAFC
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This year? Nothing. And nothing will change with Adelaide next year, because they are not dominating. Port will be forced into the Crows model next year, which should make them uncompetitive too and make all the other SANFL clubs happy. In the meantime I think the queston is, who is going to get smashed in the Grand Final by the Maggies this year?
Crows should be performing much better than at SANFL level than they have been. On Friday night they had 18 AFC listed players. You cant put their 1-6 start purely down to the top up players. Their fringe AFL team players (McKernan, Porplyzia etc) have been ordindary for most of the season. From reading match reports and forums it seems as though there are some attitude/leadership/team issues. "Bruise free" and "selfish footy" are a few commonly used terms when describing the Ravens performances this season. The fact that their supporters dont give a stuff about the team and they have no support at the ground (or a home ground for that matter) doesnt help their situation.
Port will have their "SANFL academy/reserves" team next year, that has already been agreed. They will lose their zones and U16-18 teams. Whilst this may reduce their dominance to a degree to say they will be uncompetitve is ridiculous. 15-18 full time footballers together in a team, playing a bunch of amatuers still leaves a bitter taste in the mouth of SANFL followers and distorts the playing field, regardless of where the top up players come from. Port will find a way to manipulate the arrangement (i.e as they did with the signing of Summerton this season..$400 a game?!) and the SANFL will sit on their hands as is the norm. All the commission cares about is what perks they can obtain at the Adelaide Oval.
As for the GF, so you're saying the Power wont withdraw all their players from SANFL finals like they have been traditionally known to do? No sudden need to send everybody into rehab? Funny that..
AJJPAFC
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I think you will find they can't pull there players. They have a clause that states that anyway, weather or not it is enforced is another issue. Port may also be stripped of home games in the near future. The SANFL and it's Clubs will find a way to drag Port down. They would rather drag us down then lift themselves up. And for the record, I would rather the Magpies still be what they where last year without the AFL influence. But I'm not going to stop following them because of the way it played out.
Yeah this is true. All part of the "playing to the line" pledge taken by both AFL clubs. Independent docs are supposed to review injuries, or something along those lines. I guess I was just being a bit of smartass/cynic. But as you said, we'll see what happens.
With the loss of zones/juniors etc, the one thing that differentiated Port from other AFL clubs is gone.
AJJPAFC
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Indeed. The loss of Juniors is unfortunate. Hopefully whoever ends up with the zone treats development with the respect it deserves. Its much more of a loss to the community then it is to Port Adelaide as a football club.
Heardy_101
LET'S GO BRANDON
"Plastic Franchises".
Your name isn't Warren Partland per chance?
Port Adelaide isn't an SANFL Franchise, and neither are the Crows.
Then again I'd expect to hear (read) that from a Glenelg follower.
***
I have stated this in another thread so I will post it here:
If I remember correctly the current AFL Reserves in the SANFL was supposed to be reviewed on an annual basis. So naturally, talks would be in progress regardless of the situation.
The Crows Reserves performances, in my opinion anyway, reflects their current AFL performaces. Average, with some good thrown in. The Port Magpies performances, again in my opinion, are the same story, the ability to out-last and out-run opponents with their superior fitness.
The Crows basic Reserves model - which is exactly what it is - needs to be reviewed. It's far too simple. They need more access top-up players, or the ability to add permanently listed players. I'd go as far as saying they should have a SANFL Reserves and Under 18's/16's sides as well however I believe that would dilute the current crop of players in SANFL ranks at the moment. However I believe that the solution the higher-ups will probably look at is letting them sign players who aren't getting games at the other SANFL clubs and are looking elsewhere. This would be a better solution given that not all SANFL players have played, or want to play, at AFL level and don't want to go to the country or relocate elsewhere.
For those who have suggested or have spoken to people who are suggesting the previous model be returned (where AFL players are spread throughout the 9 clubs), it is also worth mentioning - again if my memory serves me correctly - is that the SANFL gets $$$ from the Crows (and some from Port too I think) to have AFL Reserves in the SANFL. I'm fairly sure this figure was $300,000 from the Crows and Port, each (can someone clarify please). I don't think the SANFL would be too hasty in throwing that cash away, especially given there are a few SANFL clubs who are on struggle street financially.
The SANFL would be also absolutely FOOLISH to even think about abolishing the Port Adelaide senior SANFL side (as well as the Crows SANFL side) and relegate - read banish - them to the SANFL reserves. They would lose fans as well as $$$. Plus you'd think that a one or two SANFL clubs would be gone too after that, either in a merger or fold completely.
As for the crowds, I think they are on the same level as last year, the Crows said they could bring 3000 extra fans to each SANFL match, so far this has not been the case. Mind you their performance probably reflects this.
In a completely different direction, I firmly believe SA should have it's own TAC Cup (MAC Cup?), and abolish the SANFL underage leagues. This could then open the door for the SANFL clubs to simply focus on their SANFL seniors and SANFL reserves, and this includes Port and the Crows as well. This could be in the form of an Under 18's league (which is obviously what the TAC Cup is), or enter two or three teams in the TAC Cup.
Your name isn't Warren Partland per chance?
Port Adelaide isn't an SANFL Franchise, and neither are the Crows.
Then again I'd expect to hear (read) that from a Glenelg follower.
***
I have stated this in another thread so I will post it here:
If I remember correctly the current AFL Reserves in the SANFL was supposed to be reviewed on an annual basis. So naturally, talks would be in progress regardless of the situation.
The Crows Reserves performances, in my opinion anyway, reflects their current AFL performaces. Average, with some good thrown in. The Port Magpies performances, again in my opinion, are the same story, the ability to out-last and out-run opponents with their superior fitness.
The Crows basic Reserves model - which is exactly what it is - needs to be reviewed. It's far too simple. They need more access top-up players, or the ability to add permanently listed players. I'd go as far as saying they should have a SANFL Reserves and Under 18's/16's sides as well however I believe that would dilute the current crop of players in SANFL ranks at the moment. However I believe that the solution the higher-ups will probably look at is letting them sign players who aren't getting games at the other SANFL clubs and are looking elsewhere. This would be a better solution given that not all SANFL players have played, or want to play, at AFL level and don't want to go to the country or relocate elsewhere.
For those who have suggested or have spoken to people who are suggesting the previous model be returned (where AFL players are spread throughout the 9 clubs), it is also worth mentioning - again if my memory serves me correctly - is that the SANFL gets $$$ from the Crows (and some from Port too I think) to have AFL Reserves in the SANFL. I'm fairly sure this figure was $300,000 from the Crows and Port, each (can someone clarify please). I don't think the SANFL would be too hasty in throwing that cash away, especially given there are a few SANFL clubs who are on struggle street financially.
The SANFL would be also absolutely FOOLISH to even think about abolishing the Port Adelaide senior SANFL side (as well as the Crows SANFL side) and relegate - read banish - them to the SANFL reserves. They would lose fans as well as $$$. Plus you'd think that a one or two SANFL clubs would be gone too after that, either in a merger or fold completely.
As for the crowds, I think they are on the same level as last year, the Crows said they could bring 3000 extra fans to each SANFL match, so far this has not been the case. Mind you their performance probably reflects this.
In a completely different direction, I firmly believe SA should have it's own TAC Cup (MAC Cup?), and abolish the SANFL underage leagues. This could then open the door for the SANFL clubs to simply focus on their SANFL seniors and SANFL reserves, and this includes Port and the Crows as well. This could be in the form of an Under 18's league (which is obviously what the TAC Cup is), or enter two or three teams in the TAC Cup.
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Let it be known I have no problem with a competitive Magpies outfit, but the way this mob has been put together, how is this fair?
The best analogy I've heard about the whole thing is this... its like being an amateur golfer, given an eight-iron and a putter and told to play Tiger Woods.
Any Port fan that believes this is fair is kidding themselves, probably thinking this is some measure of revenge on the SANFL and those that cost them their promotion in 1990. This isn't some return to the glory days of the PAFC, those Magpies of old earned the accolades, the premierships and the respect -- my respect and that of many others -- on the merits of an SANFL team. The team out there today is no continuation of that.
Its no wonder the Magpies cheer squad called it quits at the end of last year. It truly was the end of their team.
Target painted... fire away if you must.
The best analogy I've heard about the whole thing is this... its like being an amateur golfer, given an eight-iron and a putter and told to play Tiger Woods.
Any Port fan that believes this is fair is kidding themselves, probably thinking this is some measure of revenge on the SANFL and those that cost them their promotion in 1990. This isn't some return to the glory days of the PAFC, those Magpies of old earned the accolades, the premierships and the respect -- my respect and that of many others -- on the merits of an SANFL team. The team out there today is no continuation of that.
Its no wonder the Magpies cheer squad called it quits at the end of last year. It truly was the end of their team.
Target painted... fire away if you must.
Heardy_101
LET'S GO BRANDON
I think you make a fair point.
At the same time this could have been resolved by making the Magpies the reserves back in 1997. Same with the Crows.
I think it's important not to get too carried away with the Magpies current form just yet. It's not especially unusual at any level for a really strong side to also have its reserves team be strong in their own competition too - just look at Box Hill compared to Casey. Or any lower level competition with multiple tiers around the country.
And at the same time, strong standalone sides still do pretty well in finals in every competition that contains AFL reserves teams. I've even watched the Swans reserves get done by Queanbeyan and Ainslie, after all.
The various AFL reserves sides around the country have a fairly wide spread of success. Sydney destroys everyone if it's got a healthy list, but come finals time, they often fall over. Meanwhile, the Brisbane Lions and Gold Coast Suns reserves are currently getting smashed by Queensland club sides. On the weekend Redland Bombers won by 99 over a Gold Coast with 14 AFL-listed players. Presumably most of the others are their young Academy players like the Swans have.
Port are flying and have a fairly healthy list so that's always going to make their reserves strong. But a few injuries, or a weaker squad like the Lions and Suns have, and they won't dominate any more.
And at the same time, strong standalone sides still do pretty well in finals in every competition that contains AFL reserves teams. I've even watched the Swans reserves get done by Queanbeyan and Ainslie, after all.
The various AFL reserves sides around the country have a fairly wide spread of success. Sydney destroys everyone if it's got a healthy list, but come finals time, they often fall over. Meanwhile, the Brisbane Lions and Gold Coast Suns reserves are currently getting smashed by Queensland club sides. On the weekend Redland Bombers won by 99 over a Gold Coast with 14 AFL-listed players. Presumably most of the others are their young Academy players like the Swans have.
Port are flying and have a fairly healthy list so that's always going to make their reserves strong. But a few injuries, or a weaker squad like the Lions and Suns have, and they won't dominate any more.
grassrootsfooty
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Sometimes happens, doesn't always happen. Every chance Northern Territory or Redland or Southport wins the NEAFL and Williamstown or Port Melbourne wins the VFL. And don't forget Peel are nowhere near WAFL premiership standard despite the strength of Fremantle, and that East Perth are merely strong, not dominant.
If your standard is "reserves teams should never win premierships" then that isn't really a fair expectation.
If your standard is "reserves teams should never win premierships" then that isn't really a fair expectation.
grassrootsfooty
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Seems to coincidental that the AFL teams are becoming dominant not only in the SANFL but every league in the country. Their players are proffesional full time athletes with resources that eclipse competing against amatuers, it will be somewhat of an occasional thing for a local club to win. Surely that cant be good for any competition. The Gap will only widen as more is spent on AFL elite clubs.
Well yes, those are certainly some feelings. But *my* entirely subjective personal feelings, every bit as valid as yours, are that strong standalone sides will continue to be plenty competitive.
Weak standalone clubs, not so much. But then that isn't really different to previous eras.
Weak standalone clubs, not so much. But then that isn't really different to previous eras.
grassrootsfooty
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I respect your feelings, but the facts are an AFL franchise having Full Time Coaches paid enormous salaries, Sate of the art facilities both medical and fitness not to even mention the quality of players they have with huge slaaries. It simply isnt a even playing field. It could be compared to a English Premier league club taking on a Div 3 club, most of the time the Premier League club would win but occasionally the Div 3 club would snare one. Isnt that how Hull made the FA cup final, great acheivement but nothing you would rely upon.
Well no, it couldn't. Now you're just being silly. It's kids, less talented players, players with attitude or discipline problems, injury-recovering players. And they're playing against coherent teams which are semi-professional, often really well coached (see: Norwood, Port Melbourne), often contain a number of former or aspiring AFL-level players, and are certainly pretty damn motivated.
(Just incidentally, do you know where the Real Madrid and Barcelona B teams tend to finish in the segunda division? Mid table. 3rd and 16th this year. Even the reserve sides of two of the strongest soccer clubs in the world can't dominate against sides like Eibar and Las Palmas)
grassrootsfooty
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So this years Norwood coach is on what Salary compared to say Budha Hocking, or if an SANFL club could take on a fitness coach like Darren Burgess for how much???? These clubs cannot afford this. You cant make an arguement that these local clubs are close in terms of facilities or personael, they seriously are miles away.
As for the AFL players are you joking go read the blogs on how these kids are drafted the write up on how they are the best talent in the country. They have had so many interviews with the clubs to determine if they are of the right character. I would love to read what Sydney has said about the players you picked up this year and last. The AFL have the cream of players and so they should they are paying the $$$$$$ to have this. So dont say the ones not making it into the top 22 are hacks. How long would a kid with as you say an attitude or discipline problem stay on an AFL list, 2 weeks or 2 months???
I'm not saying the reserves teams and standalone clubs are in identical situations. I don't know why you think you need to argue that point with me.
I'm saying there's no reason to think that, in their two different situations, the best of each type of team aren't broadly going to remain competitive with each other. Sure, they've got more money, but AFL reserves teams have the constraint of instability and of their footy department being focused elsewhere.
Given this generally comparable competitiveness has broadly been the case so far, the onus is on you to provide something other than a multi post repetition of the point that AFL clubs have lots of money, to demonstrate that it won't continue that way. What quantum leap are AFL teams about to make that will end the situation where their reserves sides have been broadly competitive with the best standalone clubs? Why will Port Melbourne, or Central Districts, or Northern Territory Thunder, or Subiaco, suddenly stop being capable of competing and winning premierships?
I'm saying there's no reason to think that, in their two different situations, the best of each type of team aren't broadly going to remain competitive with each other. Sure, they've got more money, but AFL reserves teams have the constraint of instability and of their footy department being focused elsewhere.
Given this generally comparable competitiveness has broadly been the case so far, the onus is on you to provide something other than a multi post repetition of the point that AFL clubs have lots of money, to demonstrate that it won't continue that way. What quantum leap are AFL teams about to make that will end the situation where their reserves sides have been broadly competitive with the best standalone clubs? Why will Port Melbourne, or Central Districts, or Northern Territory Thunder, or Subiaco, suddenly stop being capable of competing and winning premierships?
grassrootsfooty
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is the reason. If you have a league with a salary cap of $350000 for an entire squad and you are playing against a side of 22 players with a combined salary of $3 million, you dont have to be that smart to realise the advantage do you? This applies to Coaches from assistance coaches, Fitness Coaches, Dieticians, player welfare managers and Physio's and doctors, what SANFL club can afford that on their payroll . Then the $ spent on facilities like training facilities, recovery facilities or medical facilities, again how do you compete against that?
In 99.9999% of the time the above benefits surely give you an advantage, how could it not?????????
grassrootsfooty
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Huh WTF
Didnt Boxhill (hawthorn) win 2013, Sydney Swans won their Conferance and Brisbane Lions won their conferance
I would think that doesnt say otherwise wouldnt you?
If Ainslie and Queanbeyan can win flags in a league containing the reserves of a Swans team at the height of our power, if NT Thunder can win flags in Queensland, then I think Norwood and Centrals will be okay.
Can't speak for Glenelg.
Can't speak for Glenelg.
grassrootsfooty
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You just ignored my response they didnt win their leagues the Swans and Lions won their conferances, more than likely the Power will make the GF this year and compete against the Eagles and mostly likely beat the Eagles. Saying this the Eagles just lost to them by 10 Goals. As far as this list of advantages these local clubs have, I would love to see you list 10 things that would make them stronger or more competitive than their AFL counterpart?
That's one year. Ainslie and NT Thunder won in 2011 and Queanbeyan won in 2012. The Canberra sides were substantially weaker in 2013, I've consistently maintained that it takes *strong* club sides to win flags (as it should). This year, Brisbane and the Suns are both getting regularly smashed by the Queensland club sides and the winner of the comp will be one of those, or the Swans.
All I'm saying is that club sides have been competitive and won flags and there's no reason to believe that'll stop happening. They have stability, they have their best players playing together every week and they have their focus on the second tier league. They have decent coaches themselves, guys like Ayres and younger coaches looking to make a name for themselves. And the clubs are semi-professional, not random amateurs. They have plenty of talent themselves, with former AFL players, near-listing AFL players and draft aspirants - you can't tell me the bottom half of the Adelaide or Richmond list plus topup players will be unbeatably better than Norwood or Port Melbourne's best players.
You are dramatically exaggerating the size of the gulf between standalone and reserves sides in the SANFL, WAFL, NEAFL and VFL based on emotionalism.
All I'm saying is that club sides have been competitive and won flags and there's no reason to believe that'll stop happening. They have stability, they have their best players playing together every week and they have their focus on the second tier league. They have decent coaches themselves, guys like Ayres and younger coaches looking to make a name for themselves. And the clubs are semi-professional, not random amateurs. They have plenty of talent themselves, with former AFL players, near-listing AFL players and draft aspirants - you can't tell me the bottom half of the Adelaide or Richmond list plus topup players will be unbeatably better than Norwood or Port Melbourne's best players.
You are dramatically exaggerating the size of the gulf between standalone and reserves sides in the SANFL, WAFL, NEAFL and VFL based on emotionalism.
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grassrootsfooty
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Oh no Im not exagerating anything, Ex AFL listed are just that for a reason (not good enough). The coaches are aspiring and The Crows have an aspiring reserves coach, the Power have a seasoned pro in Budha Hocking, would have to be close to getting a Gig as an AFL coach. That sort of gives you his credentials although wouldnt need to you know who he is.
Norwoods best players last year were AFL players with the standout being Matt Thomas who was on the Powers list and now with Richmond. We have seen over the years in trial games when the Crows have played Norwood with half a team and destroyed them.
Their players have a far superior fitness base and being full time pros they will have for sure. You cant expect that from a guy that works as a plumber, to work 5 days a week, plays SANFL but manages two training sessions a week and maybe take time of to go to a training camp in dunabi in the pre season, thats right which club is going to pay for that. AFL players have the time to do this not suprising since the average AFL wage is $256K, I did mention the SANFL entire squad salary cap is $350K didnt I?
The Gap is wide and is only going to get bigger as the AFL clubs have more $ and grow their brands, what will the next lot of TV rights bring? Do you think an SANFL club can move along at that pace?
I am fully accepting of the AFL and its competition I much prefer the SANFL and accept it is what it is. It cant compete or even pretend to compete with such a league.
