Where does AB de Villiers rank in history?

[DaRick]

SA's second best batsman since 1992 ATM.

The problem with assessing SA's batsmen over their history is that over a generation was lost due to apartheid and names like Nourse and Mitchell from the ancient past are naturally difficult to properly assess and compare. We can only speculate how well the likes of Richards, Graeme Pollock and even Eddie Barlow would have done with longer careers, or even if Clive Rice had a chance to play more than a few testimonial ODI's.

 

[The Speaker]

SA's second best batsman since 1992 ATM.

The problem with assessing SA's batsmen over their history is that over a generation was lost due to apartheid and names like Nourse and Mitchell from the ancient past are naturally difficult to properly assess and compare. We can only speculate how well the likes of Richards, Graeme Pollock and even Eddie Barlow would have done with longer careers, or even if Clive Rice had a chance to play more than a few testimonial ODI's.

WSC is a decent indicator, and county cricket was very strong back then.

 

[The_Reaper]

And Garth Le Roux.

If you gave me a best ever Australian team and a best ever English team, I would back the Australians to win every time.

I would not do the same if they were playing a best ever South African team.

Just went through the stats for a hypothetical 18 man squad

Tests
#  Player              Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS  Ave   100  50 Wkts BBI    BBM    Ave    5i 10m  Ct  St
1. GC Smith*           LHB OS  117  9265 277  48.25  27  38    8 2/145  2/145 110.62   0   0 169   0
2. BA Richards         RHB OS    4   508 140  72.57   2   2    1 1/12   1/12   26.00   0   0   3   0
3. JH Kallis           RHB RFM 166 13289 224  55.37  45  58  292 6/54   9/92   32.65   5   0 200   0
4. RG Pollock          LHB LS   23  2256 274  60.97   7  11    4 2/50   2/50   51.00   0   0  17   0
5. AB de Villiers      RHB RM   99  7685 278* 51.92  21  37    2 2/49   2/49   52.00   0   0 185   4
6. AD Nourse           RHB --   34  2960 231  53.81   9  14    0 -/--   -/--   --.--   0   0  12   0
7. MV Boucher+         RHB RM  147  5515 125  30.30   5  35    1 1/6    1/6     6.00   0   0 532  23
8. SM Pollock          RHB RFM 108  3781 111  32.31   2  16  421 7/87  10/147  23.11  16   1  72   0
9. HJ Tayfield         RHB OS   37   862  75  16.90   0   2  170 9/113 13/165  25.91  14   2  26   0
10.DW Steyn            RHB RF   81  1124  76  14.22   0   2  402 7/51  11/60   22.56  25   5  22   0
11.AA Donald           RHB RF   72   652  37  10.68   0   0  330 8/71  12/139  22.25  20   3  18   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.MJ Procter          RHB RF    7   226  48  25.11   0   0   41 6/73   9/103  15.02   1   0   4   0
13.CEB Rice            RHB RFM   -   ---  --  --.--   -   -   -- -/--   -/---  --.--   -   -   -   -
14.GA Faulkner         RHB LS   25  1754 204  40.79   4   8   82 7/84   9/75   26.58   4   0  20   0
15.HM Amla             RHB OS   85  6813 311* 52.00  23  28    0 -/--   -/---  --.--   0   0  74   0
16.B Mitchell          RHB LS   42  3471 189* 48.88   8  21   27 5/87   5/87   51.11   1   0  56   0
17.GS Le Roux          RHB RF    -   ---  --  --.--   -   -   -- -/--   -/---  --.--   -   -   -   -
18.EJ Barlow           RHB RM   30  2516 201  45.75   6  15   40 5/85   6/87   34.05   1   0  35   0

First Class 
#  Player              Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS  Ave   100  50 Wkts BBI    BBM    Ave    5i 10m  Ct  St
1. GC Smith*           LHB OS  165 12916 311  48.73  37  51   11 2/145        102.90   0   0 241   0
2. BA Richards         RHB OS  339 28358 356  54.74  80 152   77 7/63          37.48   1   0 367   0
3. JH Kallis           RHB RFM 257 19695 224  54.10  62  97  427 6/54          31.69   8   0 264   0
4. RG Pollock          LHB LS  262 20940 274  54.67  64  99   43 3/46          47.95   0   0 248   0
5. AB de Villiers      RHB RM  125  9572 278* 50.91  24  51    2 2/49   2/49   69.00   0   0 236   5 
6. AD Nourse           RHB --  175 12472 260* 51.53  41  54    0 -/--   -/---  --.--   0   0 135   0
7. MV Boucher+         RHB RM  212  8803 134  33.34  10  53    1 1/6    1/6    28.00   0   0 712  37
8. SM Pollock          RHB RFM 186  7023 150* 33.12   6  35  667 7/33          23.25  22   2 132   0
9. HJ Tayfield         RHB OS  187  3668  77  17.30   0  10  864 9/113         21.86  67  16 149   0
10.DW Steyn            RHB RF  124  1632  82  14.32   0   4  561 8/41          23.49  33   7  28   0
11.AA Donald           RHB RF  316  2785  55* 12.05   0   1 1216 8/37          22.76  68   9 115   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.MJ Procter          RHB RF  401 21936 254  36.01  48 109 1417 9/71          19.53  70  15 325   0
13.CEB Rice            RHB RFM 482 26331 246  40.95  48 137  930 7/62          22.49  23   1 401   0
14.GA Faulkner         RHB LS  118  6366 204  36.58  13  32  449 7/26          17.42  33   8  94   0
15.HM Amla             RHB OS  189 14374 311* 51.15  44  69    1 1/10         277.00   0   0 147   0
16.B Mitchell          RHB LS  173 11395 195  45.39  30  55  249 6/33          25.63  15   2 228   0
17.GS Le Roux          RHB RF  239  5425  86  25.71   0  26  838 8/107         21.24  35   3  80   0
18.EJ Barlow           RHB RM  283 18212 217  39.16  43  86  571 7/24          24.14  16   2 335   0

Would certainly take some beating

 

[DaRick]

WSC is a decent indicator, and county cricket was very strong back then.

True, SA players did well in both formats.

Even then however, some speculation remains because WSC initially did not involve that much touring (which affects many teams, like this current Australian side).

 

[The_Reaper]

True, SA players did well in both formats.

Even then however, some speculation remains because WSC initially did not involve that much touring (which affects many teams, like this current Australian side).

WSC matches weren't home games for the Saffers though

 

[DaRick]

WSC matches weren't home games for the Saffers though

True, but they wouldn't have had to travel to the WI, then back home, then to England like today's SA cricketers do, for example.

I am inclined to think that SA would have been the second-strongest or even strongest side through the 1970's had apartheid not existed, if that means anything, so my point in this regard may be somewhat minor.

In the 1980's it would probably be harder to tell how many SA Test stars would have emerged, because we only had the sporadic SA 'rebel tours' to go by, plus county cricket (which I suspect declined with the English side's fortunes in the 1980's).

 

[Slax]

Just went through the stats for a hypothetical 18 man squad

Tests
#  Player              Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS  Ave   100  50 Wkts BBI    BBM    Ave    5i 10m  Ct  St
1. GC Smith*           LHB OS  117  9265 277  48.25  27  38    8 2/145  2/145 110.62   0   0 169   0
2. BA Richards         RHB OS    4   508 140  72.57   2   2    1 1/12   1/12   26.00   0   0   3   0
3. JH Kallis           RHB RFM 166 13289 224  55.37  45  58  292 6/54   9/92   32.65   5   0 200   0
4. RG Pollock          LHB LS   23  2256 274  60.97   7  11    4 2/50   2/50   51.00   0   0  17   0
5. AB de Villiers      RHB RM   99  7685 278* 51.92  21  37    2 2/49   2/49   52.00   0   0 185   4
6. AD Nourse           RHB --   34  2960 231  53.81   9  14    0 -/--   -/--   --.--   0   0  12   0
7. MV Boucher+         RHB RM  147  5515 125  30.30   5  35    1 1/6    1/6     6.00   0   0 532  23
8. SM Pollock          RHB RFM 108  3781 111  32.31   2  16  421 7/87  10/147  23.11  16   1  72   0
9. HJ Tayfield         RHB OS   37   862  75  16.90   0   2  170 9/113 13/165  25.91  14   2  26   0
10.DW Steyn            RHB RF   81  1124  76  14.22   0   2  402 7/51  11/60   22.56  25   5  22   0
11.AA Donald           RHB RF   72   652  37  10.68   0   0  330 8/71  12/139  22.25  20   3  18   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.MJ Procter          RHB RF    7   226  48  25.11   0   0   41 6/73   9/103  15.02   1   0   4   0
13.CEB Rice            RHB RFM   -   ---  --  --.--   -   -   -- -/--   -/---  --.--   -   -   -   -
14.GA Faulkner         RHB LS   25  1754 204  40.79   4   8   82 7/84   9/75   26.58   4   0  20   0
15.HM Amla             RHB OS   85  6813 311* 52.00  23  28    0 -/--   -/---  --.--   0   0  74   0
16.B Mitchell          RHB LS   42  3471 189* 48.88   8  21   27 5/87   5/87   51.11   1   0  56   0
17.GS Le Roux          RHB RF    -   ---  --  --.--   -   -   -- -/--   -/---  --.--   -   -   -   -
18.EJ Barlow           RHB RM   30  2516 201  45.75   6  15   40 5/85   6/87   34.05   1   0  35   0

First Class
#  Player              Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS  Ave   100  50 Wkts BBI    BBM    Ave    5i 10m  Ct  St
1. GC Smith*           LHB OS  165 12916 311  48.73  37  51   11 2/145        102.90   0   0 241   0
2. BA Richards         RHB OS  339 28358 356  54.74  80 152   77 7/63          37.48   1   0 367   0
3. JH Kallis           RHB RFM 257 19695 224  54.10  62  97  427 6/54          31.69   8   0 264   0
4. RG Pollock          LHB LS  262 20940 274  54.67  64  99   43 3/46          47.95   0   0 248   0
5. AB de Villiers      RHB RM  125  9572 278* 50.91  24  51    2 2/49   2/49   69.00   0   0 236   5
6. AD Nourse           RHB --  175 12472 260* 51.53  41  54    0 -/--   -/---  --.--   0   0 135   0
7. MV Boucher+         RHB RM  212  8803 134  33.34  10  53    1 1/6    1/6    28.00   0   0 712  37
8. SM Pollock          RHB RFM 186  7023 150* 33.12   6  35  667 7/33          23.25  22   2 132   0
9. HJ Tayfield         RHB OS  187  3668  77  17.30   0  10  864 9/113         21.86  67  16 149   0
10.DW Steyn            RHB RF  124  1632  82  14.32   0   4  561 8/41          23.49  33   7  28   0
11.AA Donald           RHB RF  316  2785  55* 12.05   0   1 1216 8/37          22.76  68   9 115   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.MJ Procter          RHB RF  401 21936 254  36.01  48 109 1417 9/71          19.53  70  15 325   0
13.CEB Rice            RHB RFM 482 26331 246  40.95  48 137  930 7/62          22.49  23   1 401   0
14.GA Faulkner         RHB LS  118  6366 204  36.58  13  32  449 7/26          17.42  33   8  94   0
15.HM Amla             RHB OS  189 14374 311* 51.15  44  69    1 1/10         277.00   0   0 147   0
16.B Mitchell          RHB LS  173 11395 195  45.39  30  55  249 6/33          25.63  15   2 228   0
17.GS Le Roux          RHB RF  239  5425  86  25.71   0  26  838 8/107         21.24  35   3  80   0
18.EJ Barlow           RHB RM  283 18212 217  39.16  43  86  571 7/24          24.14  16   2 335   0

Would certainly take some beating

Good squad. Would make a couple of changes
Out Boucher, SM Pollock
In Procter, Rice.

Reason - AB is a very good keeper so there is really not much loss in having him behind the stumps especially in this sort of side. It does then also mean that it frees up a spot for Procter. I've gone for Rice over Shaun Pollock. Personal choice.

It is quite clear looking back that the ban on South African cricket in the 70s meant we missed a chance of seeing what would of potentially been one of the greatest side in the history of cricket playing in an era when world cricket was at its strongest. In the 1970s you had a strong West Indies, England, Australia and Pakistan, put in the South Africans and there is no other period of the game that would've been so strong any one of those 5 sides could of beaten the other without it being seen as a massive upset.

 

[eth-dog]

And Garth Le Roux.

If you gave me a best ever Australian team and a best ever English team, I would back the Australians to win every time.

I would not do the same if they were playing a best ever South African team.

Bradman makes it hard to not pick Australia more often than not however.

AB is a gun. Definitely in SA's best ever XI IMO.

 

[KissKiss]

Bradman makes it hard to not pick Australia more often than not however.

AB is a gun. Definitely in SA's best ever XI IMO.

I would guess that Warne would be the other difference between the teams. Their fast bowling lineup (with Kallis as well) is fantastic but I don't know much about the spinner's spot. Unless they just go the all out pace battery

 

[eth-dog]

I would guess that Warne would be the other difference between the teams. Their fast bowling lineup (with Kallis as well) is fantastic but I don't know much about the spinner's spot. Unless they just go the all out pace battery

Henry Tayfield was considered a very good spinner.

 

[KissKiss]

Henry Tayfield was considered a very good spinner.

There you go, but on a balances of an all time Aus vs an all time SA I'd say the biggest gaps in quality would be Bradman and Warne

 

[eth-dog]

There you go, but on a balances of an all time Aus vs an all time SA I'd say the biggest gaps in quality would be Bradman and Warne

Let's compare averages (batting/bowling):

Ponsford (48)
Hayden (51)
Bradman (99)
Ponting (52)
G Chappell (54)
Border (c, 51/39)
Gilchrist (+, 47)
Miller (37/23)
Warne (17/25)
Lillee (13/24)
McGrath (7/21)

Smith (c, 48)
Richards (72)
Kallis (55/33)
G Pollock (61)
de Villiers (+, 52)
Nourse (53)
Faulkner (41/27)
S Pollock (32/23)
Tayfield (16/26)
Steyn (14/23)
Donald (11/22)

SA have a more balanced XI given AB's ability with the gloves allowing them to play Faulkner at 7 and bowl leggies but Bradman makes me go Australia.

 

[The_Reaper]

Saffers have the massive advantage of having 6 legit bowling options

 

[The Speaker]

I would guess that Warne would be the other difference between the teams. Their fast bowling lineup (with Kallis as well) is fantastic but I don't know much about the spinner's spot. Unless they just go the all out pace battery

Warne wouldn't even be my first choice spinner for the Australian team.

 

[The_Reaper]

Warne wouldn't even be my first choice spinner for the Australian team.

Huge call.

 

[eth-dog]

Saffers have the massive advantage of having 6 legit bowling options

I actually used those XI's about a month ago in the all time great function on ICC. Australia won both times, but it was close

Warne wouldn't even be my first choice spinner for the Australian team.

Really? He's a dick but he'd be comfortably first XI.

 

[The Speaker]

Huge call.

Not really. We have three of the best leg-spinners of all time to pick from, and any of them could be the legit first choice.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Warne wouldn't even be my first choice spinner for the Australian team.

Tiger?

 

[HBF]

Would love to see AB get another 2300 runs and break the 10000 barrier in tests and similarly 1600 in ODI's and break the 10000 barrier in that format. I'm not saying he isn't great but I feel like it would just certerfy him as a legend.

He should be able to do that. Still pretty young isn't he.

 

[PaddyO]

Can make an insane ATG SA combo if you're happy for AB to keep

Barry Richards
Graeme Smith *
Jaques Kallis
Graeme Pollock
AB DeVilliers +
Aubrey Faulkner
Shaun Pollock
Mike Procter
Hugh Tayfield
Dale Steyn
Allan Donald

4 genuine quicks plus Kallis plus 2 great spinners (one leggie, one offie). Could drop either of Pollock or Procter for another bat, but both were better than handy batsmen anyway. Could just attack constantly with the ball.

 

[The_Reaper]

If we start preparing green tops in today's cricket, we'd see teams bowled out before tea on the first day. No thanks. Batsmen couldn't handle it.

How prophetic considering the Ashes

 

[eth-dog]

Can make an insane ATG SA combo if you're happy for AB to keep

Barry Richards
Graeme Smith *
Jaques Kallis
Graeme Pollock
AB DeVilliers +
Aubrey Faulkner
Shaun Pollock
Mike Procter
Hugh Tayfield
Dale Steyn
Allan Donald

4 genuine quicks plus Kallis plus 2 great spinners (one leggie, one offie). Could drop either of Pollock or Procter for another bat, but both were better than handy batsmen anyway. Could just attack constantly with the ball.

I'd drop Procter for someone like Dudley Nourse. You don't need the 4th quick with Kallis there.

 

[FredLeDeux]

Just went through the stats for a hypothetical 18 man squad

Tests
#  Player              Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS  Ave   100  50 Wkts BBI    BBM    Ave    5i 10m  Ct  St
1. GC Smith*           LHB OS  117  9265 277  48.25  27  38    8 2/145  2/145 110.62   0   0 169   0
2. BA Richards         RHB OS    4   508 140  72.57   2   2    1 1/12   1/12   26.00   0   0   3   0
3. JH Kallis           RHB RFM 166 13289 224  55.37  45  58  292 6/54   9/92   32.65   5   0 200   0
4. RG Pollock          LHB LS   23  2256 274  60.97   7  11    4 2/50   2/50   51.00   0   0  17   0
5. AB de Villiers      RHB RM   99  7685 278* 51.92  21  37    2 2/49   2/49   52.00   0   0 185   4
6. AD Nourse           RHB --   34  2960 231  53.81   9  14    0 -/--   -/--   --.--   0   0  12   0
7. MV Boucher+         RHB RM  147  5515 125  30.30   5  35    1 1/6    1/6     6.00   0   0 532  23
8. SM Pollock          RHB RFM 108  3781 111  32.31   2  16  421 7/87  10/147  23.11  16   1  72   0
9. HJ Tayfield         RHB OS   37   862  75  16.90   0   2  170 9/113 13/165  25.91  14   2  26   0
10.DW Steyn            RHB RF   81  1124  76  14.22   0   2  402 7/51  11/60   22.56  25   5  22   0
11.AA Donald           RHB RF   72   652  37  10.68   0   0  330 8/71  12/139  22.25  20   3  18   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.MJ Procter          RHB RF    7   226  48  25.11   0   0   41 6/73   9/103  15.02   1   0   4   0
13.CEB Rice            RHB RFM   -   ---  --  --.--   -   -   -- -/--   -/---  --.--   -   -   -   -
14.GA Faulkner         RHB LS   25  1754 204  40.79   4   8   82 7/84   9/75   26.58   4   0  20   0
15.HM Amla             RHB OS   85  6813 311* 52.00  23  28    0 -/--   -/---  --.--   0   0  74   0
16.B Mitchell          RHB LS   42  3471 189* 48.88   8  21   27 5/87   5/87   51.11   1   0  56   0
17.GS Le Roux          RHB RF    -   ---  --  --.--   -   -   -- -/--   -/---  --.--   -   -   -   -
18.EJ Barlow           RHB RM   30  2516 201  45.75   6  15   40 5/85   6/87   34.05   1   0  35   0

First Class
#  Player              Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS  Ave   100  50 Wkts BBI    BBM    Ave    5i 10m  Ct  St
1. GC Smith*           LHB OS  165 12916 311  48.73  37  51   11 2/145        102.90   0   0 241   0
2. BA Richards         RHB OS  339 28358 356  54.74  80 152   77 7/63          37.48   1   0 367   0
3. JH Kallis           RHB RFM 257 19695 224  54.10  62  97  427 6/54          31.69   8   0 264   0
4. RG Pollock          LHB LS  262 20940 274  54.67  64  99   43 3/46          47.95   0   0 248   0
5. AB de Villiers      RHB RM  125  9572 278* 50.91  24  51    2 2/49   2/49   69.00   0   0 236   5
6. AD Nourse           RHB --  175 12472 260* 51.53  41  54    0 -/--   -/---  --.--   0   0 135   0
7. MV Boucher+         RHB RM  212  8803 134  33.34  10  53    1 1/6    1/6    28.00   0   0 712  37
8. SM Pollock          RHB RFM 186  7023 150* 33.12   6  35  667 7/33          23.25  22   2 132   0
9. HJ Tayfield         RHB OS  187  3668  77  17.30   0  10  864 9/113         21.86  67  16 149   0
10.DW Steyn            RHB RF  124  1632  82  14.32   0   4  561 8/41          23.49  33   7  28   0
11.AA Donald           RHB RF  316  2785  55* 12.05   0   1 1216 8/37          22.76  68   9 115   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.MJ Procter          RHB RF  401 21936 254  36.01  48 109 1417 9/71          19.53  70  15 325   0
13.CEB Rice            RHB RFM 482 26331 246  40.95  48 137  930 7/62          22.49  23   1 401   0
14.GA Faulkner         RHB LS  118  6366 204  36.58  13  32  449 7/26          17.42  33   8  94   0
15.HM Amla             RHB OS  189 14374 311* 51.15  44  69    1 1/10         277.00   0   0 147   0
16.B Mitchell          RHB LS  173 11395 195  45.39  30  55  249 6/33          25.63  15   2 228   0
17.GS Le Roux          RHB RF  239  5425  86  25.71   0  26  838 8/107         21.24  35   3  80   0
18.EJ Barlow           RHB RM  283 18212 217  39.16  43  86  571 7/24          24.14  16   2 335   0

Would certainly take some beating

Dennis Lindsay clearly ahead of Boucher as a keeper, and a different class altogether as a batsman.

 

[Belnakor]

SA have a more balanced XI given AB's ability with the gloves allowing them to play Faulkner at 7 and bowl leggies but Bradman makes me go Australia.

its interesting for all teams. Like, if you look at all time WI team, it would be competitive with the english/SA/Australian teams too. The difference is Bradman in basically makes it a moot point, since you are effectively adding an extra batsman to the team.

 

[PaddyO]

XIs (without Bradman)

Aus
Trumper
Morris
Ponting
G.Chappell
Miller
Harvey
Gilchrist
Warne
Lillee
O'Reilly
McGrath

WI
Greenidge
Worrell
Headley
Lara
Richards
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Gibbs/Garner