Where the improvement will come from?

[RockJobster0312]

It's not a very long term theory this? It's about building a premiership list not a list that scrapes into the final 8. I'm not talking wholesale changes. My prime example last year for these games against The saints x2 Brisbane and GWS was Elton and resting Chaplin. I think the club missed a golden opportunity getting another 4-5 games into Elton this year to go with his 1 game back in 2012. Talks take longer to develop . It would of been good to give him something to work on over the off season.

I think it can certainly be a long term theory if you have the confidence that by playing youngsters in the VFL, they will have the same exposure or capacity to improve.

I agree with you on Elton - but again to a degree. From what I saw/ read, he didn't really set the world on fire as a back in the VFL this year. At some point you do have to stop 'gifting' games to players. BUT he does need some exposure to the AFL system to see if he has the actual ability to play at that level.

But in all fairness to the RFC, when we played Saints the first time, we were 3-10. When we played the GWS we were only percentage away from the bottom of the ladder. When we played them both a second time they were must win games for us should we make finals. There is certainly justification for the methodology they chose, we certainly were not in a position to expose players before they've earned it in that scenario.

Hopefully they set the world alight during pre-season. A dominant pre-season campaign could see them push themselves into the best 22. Even if they don't, it puts pressure on others to consistently perform. Competition breeds improvement from my experience.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Next year we are reliant on improvement from within our squad. Lots to like, but also very big questions about top line ability against the best. If we play to what we know we are capable of then top 8 is almost certain, and top 4 very possible. If a few guys take a step up then we might just give it a shake. But the key is that the coaches and players learn from what went wrong, and what went right, in 2014. Yeah, if TV plays to his potential we have a A grade ruck/forward, if Griff steps up we extend our forward line another 15 meters out, if Astbury stays good we stop the monster forwards, Conca steps up we get a good B grade (maybe better) inside/outside midfielder, Dusty improves again = awesome, yada yada....

But the team has to play our game, relentlessly, with confidence and with true tiger toughness. Do that and we will be good.

Then the A graders will want to come and see what's in our war chest. We will have $ and a young competitive team.

Without belief and discipline performance won't happen. Learn and step up. Unlike any other team at the moment our proven best is absolutely top line, but our average is very average. If we can step up to that top line as our average then watch out. It's between the ears of the squad right now more than individual's improvement.

 

[Tango67]

Vlas will never get 20+ consistantly while he plays in the backline, once his tank is right he'll play Mid then we can compare him to Wines etc

I disagree, Vlas has never avged more than 20+ possies even as a junior, his underage form was always as a rebounding intercept HBF and a very good one, just because he is a very good player does not make him a mid. In my mind he will never be a mid but will hold our backline together for years.

We need to stop trying to make kids into mids and start drafting genuine mids, guys that know how to get the ball and know what to do with it when they do, when was the last genuine ball magnet drafted by the club? find the kid that gets it 30 - 35+ and get him....

 

[Mr Magic]

I disagree, Vlas has never avged more than 20+ possies even as a junior, his underage form was always as a rebounding intercept HBF and a very good one, just because he is a very good player does not make him a mid. In my mind he will never be a mid but will hold our backline together for years.

We need to stop trying to make kids into mids and start drafting genuine mids, guys that know how to get the ball and know what to do with it when they do, when was the last genuine ball magnet drafted by the club? find the kid that gets it 30 - 35+ and get him....

Thing we Vlas is he seems to carry a lot of Bulk, even more than say a Hodge and I think this may limit his tank and mobility to play other roles more effectively which might be why other teams did not rate him as high as we did in his draft.

I rate him but I am not as sure he may develop into a consistent long term ruck rover as I initially thought possible. Still its a bit too early to jump to conclusions on him yet and, as I said, he is still a very handy player

 

[Tango67]

i think he is a great player, he can swing HBF or HFF and have an impact but he will never be a gut running mid and these days you need to be.
Even Martin who was drafted as a mid has shown he is more effective as a HFF or Fwd because he cant run both ways.
Getting ball magnets that can run both ways will allow us the luxary of having damaging cream players on the outside like dusty and lids

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

4 keys:

1. Either Vickery, Griffiths or both need to cement their spot in the side to give us 2-3 genuinely good forward options. Both are close to doing so. We need 10-14 touches and 30 goals from Griff, 40 goals from Tyrone.

2. Astbury needs to stay on the park. We already have Rance and Grimes/Chaplin will both look a lot better as the third tall. Astbury as Rance is a very strong duo if this years form is anything to go by.

3. Conca and Vlastuin both need to continue developing. Both had injury/concussion/suspension interrupted years and need to get their fitness up. 22-25 touches a game from Conca and 18+ for Vlastuin will go a long way.

4. McDonough and/or Lennon need to cement their spot in the side. There are other kids too but these are the two that are close. They need to force out Newman and Foley.

 

[Tigerbob]

Improvement won't come from picks 12, 33 and 52.

It has to come from within. Plus we have to rely on other teams not making the same improvements plus rely on an easy draw.

Lot of wishful thinking. Plenty of risk our football department have taken.

 

[Tango67]

Improvement won't come from picks 12, 33 and 52.

It has to come from within. Plus we have to rely on other teams not making the same improvements plus rely on an easy draw.

Lot of wishful thinking. Plenty of risk our football department have taken.

Interested to hear how you would have done it differeantly Tigerbob

 

[Roachy8]

I swear i've seen this before..

Yeah - Deja vu & a half.... relevant question to be asked every off season though.

Is it just me or have we really slipped with bringing on our first and second year players over the past 2 seasons?
I know the popular opinion is (and two top 8 finishes in two years would support the theory) that as our core has improved we have not 'gifted' games to younger players as readily but...

Not sure the likes of Lennon and Vlastuin (who I have a huge amount of time for) and McDonough and Arnott and such have really come on as much as they should have.

With no trading in of best 22 players we can not just rely on organic improvement from the more experienced players to get us deeper into September.
Our 5 draftees will provide a major surprise if any one of them is locked into our best team by the end of 2015 - too much to expect.

I'm very much expecting (fearing) that 2015 will see us take a step back in results as we 'blood' and develop our 18,19, 20 and 21 your old cubs to lift us to the next level. (Along with a free agency get or two...)

 

[Tigerbob]

Interested to hear how you would have done it differeantly Tigerbob

* sake.

 

[Tango67]

Nice TB very constructive,

in my mind the Tigers did all they could.
They had nothing of great value to trade without losing needed talent and given nobody stepped out and named us as their club of choice we couldnt snare anything of value not that there was much around

these days you cant trade in unless you trade out and pay overs and we just wont do that unless its somebody really special and there was no one there like that, that was willing to come to us

in the end no one wanted to come to our club but no one wanted to leave, its off to the draft we go and i say great work

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

when was the last genuine ball magnet drafted by the club? find the kid that gets it 30 - 35+ and get him....

Anthony Miles?

 

[TigerTime88]

I disagree, Vlas has never avged more than 20+ possies even as a junior, his underage form was always as a rebounding intercept HBF and a very good one, just because he is a very good player does not make him a mid. In my mind he will never be a mid but will hold our backline together for years.

We need to stop trying to make kids into mids and start drafting genuine mids, guys that know how to get the ball and know what to do with it when they do, when was the last genuine ball magnet drafted by the club? find the kid that gets it 30 - 35+ and get him....

I agree we have to stop taking HBF and trying to make them midfielders. This is probably why we overlooked Parker types for Batchelors. THis mantra that guys need to play all positions is crap...get some genuine mids because they are normally the better players anyway.

As for the last kid we drafted that finds it.....Brandon Ellis.

 

[Tango67]

I agree we have to stop taking HBF and trying to make them midfielders. This is probably why we overlooked Parker types for Batchelors. THis mantra that guys need to play all positions is crap...get some genuine mids because they are normally the better players anyway.

As for the last kid we drafted that finds it.....Brandon Ellis.

not sure that brandon "finds it" just has elite running power to get on the end of it more than anyone else - which is great
need another of him and another Miles

 

[Mr Magic]

not sure that brandon "finds it" just has elite running power to get on the end of it more than anyone else - which is great
need another of him and another Miles

Can't agree, can't have the same type unless they are very versatile.

4 Lids is okay, or 4 Cotch's because they can play different roles but not so much 4 Ellis's or 4 Miles

 

[Tango67]

Can't agree, can't have the same type unless they are very versatile.

4 Lids is okay, or 4 Cotch's because they can play different roles but not so much 4 Ellis's or 4 Miles

i thin 2 MIles and 2 Ellis's would be fine, dont know where you got 4 from. LOL

 

[JR82]

I disagree, Vlas has never avged more than 20+ possies even as a junior, his underage form was always as a rebounding intercept HBF and a very good one, just because he is a very good player does not make him a mid. In my mind he will never be a mid but will hold our backline together for years.

We need to stop trying to make kids into mids and start drafting genuine mids, guys that know how to get the ball and know what to do with it when they do, when was the last genuine ball magnet drafted by the club? find the kid that gets it 30 - 35+ and get him....

i always saw Vlas as a Voss type of mid but needs a bigger tank.
you could argue the last 30-35+ mid was Miles. need more!

 

[Mr Magic]

i thin 2 MIles and 2 Ellis's would be fine, dont know where you got 4 from. LOL

Don't agree particularly Miles, his role is pretty specific! In terms of forging a premiership combination!

 

[Tango67]

Don't agree particularly Miles, his role is pretty specific! In terms of forging a premiership combination!

tag, injure or hurt Miles and who gets our ball?

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

tag, injure or hurt Miles and who gets our ball?

Ricky Pettard and Matt Thomas do and there people lies the problem.

 

[Mr Magic]

tag, injure or hurt Miles and who gets our ball?

This is a strategy/list management perception problem IMO.

For starters if Miles gets tagged the others get the ball and if they can't not good enough.

If Miles get injured as a rover, just unlucky, can't be paying good coin for back-up. Just get the replacement and hopefully teams fills any gaps. A well structured premiership squad cannot afford to have high quality reserves and be competitive unless you have Cola. So my argument is, if we had an equivalent replacement for Miles in reserves, our pay structure would be inadequate. By that I mean we wouldn't be competitive before reaching a GF, prior to any Miles injury, because the quality in reserve for Miles backup, salary wise, would dictate the onfield squad would not be good enough in the first place competitively to reach the GF, prior to any Miles injury!

So when you list manage effectively you would need accommodate only for certain players that are more likely to get injured and more easily replaceable. Eg, No replacement for Lids and Cotch so don't try it. Maric on the other hand, due to age and size , more acceptable to have a backup

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

I think it can certainly be a long term theory if you have the confidence that by playing youngsters in the VFL, they will have the same exposure or capacity to improve.

I agree with you on Elton - but again to a degree. From what I saw/ read, he didn't really set the world on fire as a back in the VFL this year. At some point you do have to stop 'gifting' games to players. BUT he does need some exposure to the AFL system to see if he has the actual ability to play at that level.

But in all fairness to the RFC, when we played Saints the first time, we were 3-10. When we played the GWS we were only percentage away from the bottom of the ladder. When we played them both a second time they were must win games for us should we make finals. There is certainly justification for the methodology they chose, we certainly were not in a position to expose players before they've earned it in that scenario.

Hopefully they set the world alight during pre-season. A dominant pre-season campaign could see them push themselves into the best 22. Even if they don't, it puts pressure on others to consistently perform. Competition breeds improvement from my experience.

3-10 and playing the Saints , the fact your suggesting the coaching staff where scared we might drop that one speaks volumes for how off track we are regarding development.

I don't think it's alright for players to develop in the VFL while players that will not be at the club in a year or two years play

 

[RockJobster0312]

3-10 and playing the Saints , the fact your suggesting the coaching staff where scared we might drop that one speaks volumes for how off track we are regarding development.

I don't think it's alright for players to develop in the VFL while players that will not be at the club in a year or two years play

I think that's a valid opinion. I don't agree with it necessarily, but I think there is just a difference for how we see development going ahead.

 

[Tango67]

my point is i think we need another inside mid like Miles in the 22 that allows our class players to play outside, ideally another inside ball magnet and a lrage body centremen who can enforce and protect our mids would complement what we have

 

[_RT_]

Our improvement needs to come from the likes of Dea McDonough Lennon Lloyd Gordon & Arnot. Those guys step up and become our Langford Puopolo Duryea Cunningham Rampe Nick Smith types who week to week perform a role that allows the better players to simply go about playing their best footy. The guys I named all have some talent about them and can be very handy types if they can get themselves up and running.

The likes of Conca Vlastuin Astbury & Griffiths that most have named should improve naturally considering they are all high draft picks that have had a few years in the system, obviously they will need to work hard but they aren't the types that will make or break our season IMO. The other guys I named above are the depth types that will be called upon in an injury/poor form situation that will be called upon to come in and keep us on track. There could also be an opportunity for them to take a spot in the 22 as a few older types aren't walk up starts anymore either.