List Mgmt. Who needs a big year to escape the axe?

[Apex36]

I struggle with some of your reasoning TG

Karnezis is young and has struggled to get into the AFL team but you are happy to keep him on albeit with the rider he needs to get AFL games this season.

Fasolo is younger than Karnezis and has spent the same no of years in the system, has had a career much more damaged by injury yet doesn't struggle at all to get AFL games when fit and has a much superior playing record.

Yet Fasolo you believe should be cut at the end of the season if he continues his career as it has been to date. That continuation would likely involve 20+ senior games assuming he stays fit based on his previous output. And if we cut him no one else will pick him up? Think you are way off the mark. Plenty of clubs would rightly love to have him. He has had last 2 seasons wrecked by injury. Does that come into your calculations?

Can't agree with the assertation that PK hasn't had the injury woes of Fas.

He had a fair few injuries in his time at Brisbane, which stunted his development a bit, and missing the whole 2014 preseason with OP in addition to his later injuries basically wrote off his season this year. I was actually impressed that he came as close to senior selection as he did given that he was playing catch up all year.

Fas has probably missed slightly more, and I think he would be picked up if we cut him, but I actually agree with TG on this one (God help me). Fas has shown he can play great footy in a winning team (2011/12), but he hasn't been very impressive in a side that's not dominating. PK on the other hand, showed some brilliance in a terrible Lions side, and has not yet been able to really show his wares at the pies due to injury.

It's all a bit irrelevant really though. Fas seems to be one of Bucks' favorites, so I can't see him being delisted unless something drastic happens.

 

[sr36]

I don't think a bump was really necessary. It's a wee bit early in the year to be delisting blokes.

 

[Gone Critical]

Can't agree with the assertation that PK hasn't had the injury woes of Fas.

He had a fair few injuries in his time at Brisbane, which stunted his development a bit, and missing the whole 2014 preseason with OP in addition to his later injuries basically wrote off his season this year. I was actually impressed that he came as close to senior selection as he did given that he was playing catch up all year.

Fas has probably missed slightly more, and I think he would be picked up if we cut him, but I actually agree with TG on this one (God help me). Fas has shown he can play great footy in a winning team (2011/12), but he hasn't been very impressive in a side that's not dominating. PK on the other hand, showed some brilliance in a terrible Lions side, and has not yet been able to really show his wares at the pies due to injury.

It's all a bit irrelevant really though. Fas seems to be one of Bucks' favorites, so I can't see him being delisted unless something drastic happens.

Well we will have to disagree on this one. Fas missesd virtually a whole season in 2013, no pre season, came in for 1st game of any sort in VFL round 2 of season and was gone for the year a few weeks later when broke navicular bone and needed surgery. Unfair to say he didn't play well that year as he never had a chance. Again compromised pre season this year, missed games during the year and had surgery again, really hasn't had a good go in 2013-14.

Can you tell me about the injuries Karnesis had at Brisbane because when I looked up his record on the Inside Footy site he is listed as not missing any games through injury 2011-13. In 2011 he started NEAFL and played the last 11 games straight in the seniors. In 2012 he played 21 games and in 2013 18 games with 3 weeks missed due to NEAFL byes and 1 as senior emergency so overall was available for 22 games. Truth is I think this is the only season Karnezis has had injury concerns.

If you were impressed that Karnezis could come back after injury and get close to senior selection why are you not impressed that Fas came back from worse injuries, was able to get back to AFL level quickly and have games where he kicked 4 goals (St K) or 30+ possies (NM). If Karnezis had been able to get AFL games and had a couple of performances like Fasolo did I guarantee posters would be raving about his potential. Remember Fas is a little younger than Patty K

Fas I reckon is a victim of his own success. Face it he burst out of the blocks and played like a top 10 pick for his 1st 2 seasons. End of 2012 he would have been rated top 5 roughly in his year. 2013 he had no chance and 2014 was seriously compromised. He has fallen off the pace because of injury. As such he is being judged by a much harsher standard than Karnezis who is his peer.

I am not knocking Patty K, he went to school with my kids and I would love him to make it, it's just his position has to more precarious than Fas because Fas has proven himself at a much higher level and since then has been cut down by injury.

 

[mike123]

Fas is also a victim of being good but got himself injured, then being upgraded upon when he got injured (Jamie Elliott)

 

[Gone Critical]

Fas is also a victim of being good but got himself injured, then being upgraded upon when he got injured (Jamie Elliott)

Yeah fair point. Elliott is an upgrade. Am really keen what Fas and Elliott can do in tandem and maybe even Patty as well as a trio.

 

[Kappa]

Fasolo has had so much to deal with in his short career

Serious long term injuries, being dumped in the deep end on his comeback... playing a completely new position ect

He has serious talent though and I cannot believe anyone would want to delist him. At WORST you just have to rookie him, to not do so would be negligent as he has already shown he can play at AFL level and has the potential to be very good

 

[OniAu]

Fasolo has had so much to deal with in his short career

Serious long term injuries, being dumped in the deep end on his comeback... playing a completely new position ect

He has serious talent though and I cannot believe anyone would want to delist him. At WORST you just have to rookie him, to not do so would be negligent as he has already shown he can play at AFL level and has the potential to be very good

Agree

He is exactly the type of player we need to have a good run with injuries and just play in the one spot.

He needs to be our half forward flanker. Stuff that half back rubbish, fasolo can kick a goal 40 metres off one step without looking. He knows where the goals are , we seriously should be stacking our forward line with people that have an appropriate skill set to be a forward.

 

[gutsroy]

Had Fasolo been delisted I would struggle to see anyone picking him up. Lots of senior listed players from other clubs have been cut without finding clubs.

I think that is a fair point, it has been a while since he has been able to put together consistent spells with the for issues, so he would be no certainty. What does speak for him I'd say is his generally very good skills and decision-making. Am hoping he can bounce back this year.

 

[Damon_3388]

9. Jessie White

Leigh Brown Mk II? Unfortunately not yet for the man we know as Jessie White. He was unable to do the job he was recruited for which was to provide a backup option for Travis Cloke and also pinch hit in the ruck. He did have a decent patch of form at the start of the year when Trav wasn't playing at his best and also finished fairly well in the last two games of the year (coincidentally when Cloke wasn't there) but for the most part, was underwhelming. He's built like Tarzan but needs to stop playing like Jane if he is to remain on the list.

Remember, Leigh Brown's first year at Collingwood (2009) was pretty lacklustre compared to what he did in the two seasons that followed. I mean, to observe Brown's overall impact, you can compare his Champion Data Player Ranking scores during his three seasons as a Magpie:

2009 (23 games) - 57.87
2010 (19 games) - 73.05
2011 (23 games) - 67.17

Significant jump in measureable impact in years two and three there.

White is now the same age as Brown was when he arrived at Collingwood, is more athletic than 'The Anvil' ever was, and has now had a year to settle and get the kinks out. I think we can expect a much better 2015 from him.

Personally, I'd like to see White used as a forward full-time in 2015. He's just not very good as a ruckman. TBH, I don't want to see anyone other than Brodie Grundy or Jarrod Witts doing the ruckwork for us next year. We've finally got two big competent genuine ruckmen, so play them in tandem and allow them to rotate, instead of using undersized part-timers.

 

[Damon_3388]

Agree

He is exactly the type of player we need to have a good run with injuries and just play in the one spot.

He needs to be our half forward flanker. Stuff that half back rubbish, fasolo can kick a goal 40 metres off one step without looking. He knows where the goals are , we seriously should be stacking our forward line with people that have an appropriate skill set to be a forward.

This.

Our forward entry was atrocious last year. We've got enough guys who can play off half back, without trying to turn natural forwards into midfielders. We need guys on that half forward line with skills to deliver the ball, and Fasolo fits that bill perfectly, and has probably learnt the workrate and defensive aspects now that (I assume) his stint as a defender was meant to teach him.

 

[nahnah]

Karnezis has more natural talent than Fasolo and seems to have a better attitude. Fasolo to me looks like one of those players that was AFL ready when they entered the system at a young age but had reached their ceiling (Rhys Palmer is another example)
I can't see Fasolo having a better career than Karnezis

 

[Gone Critical]

Karnezis has more natural talent than Fasolo and seems to have a better attitude. Fasolo to me looks like one of those players that was AFL ready when they entered the system at a young age but had reached their ceiling (Rhys Palmer is another example)
I can't see Fasolo having a better career than Karnezis

On what basis does Karnezis have more natural talent. Fasolo has done much more and looked much more dangerous at AFL level. The only reason he hasn't kicked I reckon is because he hasn't had a pre season in the last 2 and his seasons have been cut down by injury. When injury free his performances have been at a much higher level. Karnezis has yet to show any substantial prolonged form at AFL after 4 years. If he doesn't have a big improvement and play seniors in 2015 he will probably be delisted.

As for being AFL ready when entering the system that is a benefit and a marker of a superior player. Most of the top 10 draft picks enter near AFL ready and play a fair bit of footy in their 1st year. Less players down the draft do that but the ones that do tend to join most of the top 10 players as the stand outs of their year. Early football in your career correlates strongly with a superior career.

Can't see how anyone could say that a player who was near the top of his year in his 1st 2 seasons then has the next 2 cut down by injury has reached his ceiling.

 

[nahnah]

On what basis does Karnezis have more natural talent. Fasolo has done much more and looked much more dangerous at AFL level. The only reason he hasn't kicked I reckon is because he hasn't had a pre season in the last 2 and his seasons have been cut down by injury. When injury free his performances have been at a much higher level. Karnezis has yet to show any substantial prolonged form at AFL after 4 years. If he doesn't have a big improvement and play seniors in 2015 he will probably be delisted.

As for being AFL ready when entering the system that is a benefit and a marker of a superior player. Most of the top 10 draft picks enter near AFL ready and play a fair bit of footy in their 1st year. Less players down the draft do that but the ones that do tend to join most of the top 10 players as the stand outs of their year. Early football in your career correlates strongly with a superior career.

Can't see how anyone could say that a player who was near the top of his year in his 1st 2 seasons then has the next 2 cut down by injury has reached his ceiling.

If Shazza didn't get injured and had a slow start to the season last year would you say Langdon is the better player because of the way he started his career? No, Shazza has more talent just like Karnezis has more than Fasolo.
Fasolo has had the better career to date, but he played in a team that made it easy for him, go back watch Karnezis play, even when he was sub he impressed me.

Just had a look and they were in the same draft, PK went top 25, Fas went after 40...
Did you watch Karnezis at brisbane? He is 190+ and is very talented...
I understand the draft isn't the be all end all given Parker went pick 40 and should have gone 1 lol but both have been cut down by injury, to say just Fasolo Id unfair on PK. If anything Fasolo's is more to worry about going forward given its highly likely to happen again I heard.

Time will tell I suppose

 

[Gone Critical]

If Shazza didn't get injured and had a slow start to the season last year would you say Langdon is the better player because of the way he started his career? No, Shazza has more talent just like Karnezis has more than Fasolo.
Fasolo has had the better career to date, but he played in a team that made it easy for him, go back watch Karnezis play, even when he was sub he impressed me.

In the senario you play out I wouldn't automatically hold onto Scharenberg being the better player. For most of us all we see of the kids is a TAC cup or similar highlights reel. If the next season I saw Langdon have the season he did but a fit and ready Scharneberg struggle with AFL footy and play mainly VFL I would be starting to wonder if the recruiters got it wrong and Langdon wasn't the better senior player. Not every top draft picks makes the passage across and not all late draft picks struggle. Some become stars of the comp. I would want to give them more time, esp Scharenberg, in that instance, but I would be starting to reappraise their ratings.

However Fas and Patty K entered the system with a rating much closer to each other's. Would also contest that Fas played in a team that made it easy for him. One thing that is difficult for a first year player to do is the break into a reigning premier team that is dominating the next year. Fas did that and immediately solidified to become a near automatic selection immediately. He has remained an automatic selection when fit ever since. Only very talented players can pull something like that off.

 

[nahnah]

In the senario you play out I wouldn't automatically hold onto Scharenberg being the better player. For most of us all we see of the kids is a TAC cup or similar highlights reel. If the next season I saw Langdon have the season he did but a fit and ready Scharneberg struggle with AFL footy and play mainly VFL I would be starting to wonder if the recruiters got it wrong and Langdon wasn't the better senior player. Not every top draft picks makes the passage across and not all late draft picks struggle. Some become stars of the comp. I would want to give them more time, esp Scharenberg, in that instance, but I would be starting to reappraise their ratings.

However Fas and Patty K entered the system with a rating much closer to each other's. Would also contest that Fas played in a team that made it easy for him. One thing that is difficult for a first year player to do is the break into a reigning premier team that is dominating the next year. Fas did that and immediately solidified to become a near automatic selection immediately. He has remained an automatic selection when fit ever since. Only very talented players can pull something like that off.

I think Fasolo can be best 22 on the form he showed in 2012, but I doubt he will pass that form.. I think Karnezis will play at a higher level than that in 2015 and would have this year if he wasn't cut down by injury

 

[bunyips_77]

I think we have far too many 'ok' players some of which are overrated by pie supporters. For me Thomas, Adams, Seedsman and Kennedy fall into this catagory . Of course I hope they prove me wrong.

I think these players are 'ok' and hopefully a few of them can have a big 2015 as most have been in the system for a while:

Fasolo
White
Thomas
Young
Dwyer
Armstrong
Sinclair
Seedsman
Kennedy
Blair
Adams
Keeffe
Gault

Those that don't we should trade out for high end talent at the next draft.

For me the last few years have been great trade-wise with additions of freeman, the burger, langdon, frost, grundy, de goey, maynard, greenwood to name a few.

Future is looking bright just need more top end talent to win a flag in my opinion.

 

[ksardog]

Karnezis has more natural talent than Fasolo and seems to have a better attitude. Fasolo to me looks like one of those players that was AFL ready when they entered the system at a young age but had reached their ceiling (Rhys Palmer is another example)
I can't see Fasolo having a better career than Karnezis

Couldnt disagree more, fasolo's problem is his attitude and not doing the 1 percenters that can complete his game ( also been injured ). He has talent to burn, great hands, beautiful kick.

 

[nahnah]

Would love to be proven wrong so future person please don't be afraid to bump this up if Fasolo ever has a season where he plays 20+ games and averages more than 16possesions and 1 goal a game

 

[Gone Critical]

Would love to be proven wrong so future person please don't be afraid to bump this up if Fasolo ever has a season where he plays 20+ games and averages more than 16possesions and 1 goal a game

2012 was 24 games, 15.5 disposals and 1.2 goals so he has been there already more or less. Last season he wasn't injured. So if he is injury free in 2015 I reckon we might be bumping then

 

[NT.Thunder]

Fasolo has had so much to deal with in his short career

Serious long term injuries, being dumped in the deep end on his comeback... playing a completely new position ect

He has serious talent though and I cannot believe anyone would want to delist him. At WORST you just have to rookie him, to not do so would be negligent as he has already shown he can play at AFL level and has the potential to be very good

Not concerned about this at all TBH and I thought he actually out performed expectations in the new role down back.

Whilst it's unfortunate for Fas and others that injuries happen and subsequently may be overtaken by players like Elliott, it's great news for me. The more talent we emerge regardless of how we find it the better. If guys are fighting over similar roles and unable to break into a team because of this 2 things can happen. They bide their time in the VFL and take their opportunities when given, or if good enough they seek a trade.

If fit, Fasolo plays best 22 IMO regardless if it's forward or back. I think he needs to kick goals and play forward FWIW.

It's up to Fas imo. If he's good enough, and I believe he is and if he puts in the effort and remains free of injury he has a long career with us, if not we move him on one way or another.

 

[nahnah]

2012 was 24 games, 15.5 disposals and 1.2 goals so he has been there already more or less. Last season he wasn't injured. So if he is injury free in 2015 I reckon we might be bumping then

I know he has been there, that's why I made it those numbers lol

 

[Pendles!]

I don't think the name Alex Fasolo belongs in this thread, Paul Seedsman on the other hand....

 

[Gone Critical]

I don't think the name Alex Fasolo belongs in this thread, Paul Seedsman on the other hand....

Yep the seed has to step up. He had injuries also last year so gets some allowance there but there a lot of options in the roles he plays.

For a lot of guys on the edge of selection in the 22 2015 will prove a sentinel year. Not all of them will make it and some will face delisting at the end of the year. In its way it must make the preseason intense because quite a few are battling each other for the 22 and the list. As we have changed so much and gone so young the hierarchy is unclear.

 

[Kappa]

I don't think the name Alex Fasolo belongs in this thread, Paul Seedsman on the other hand....

One of the most overrated players on our list

His defensive work is poor and his kicking is highly inconsistent

 

[NT.Thunder]

I like Seedsman - I think he brings Speed that we have lacked over the years but his retention of the football is an area for concern.

Really failed to come on in 2014 after a good year in 2013 and I fear he is one that may be overtaken by some quality kids we picked up this year and last. It's not to say he can't improve and cement a place in the side but he is one who needs to be damaging with the football every single time he has it if he plays so outside.

I agree Gone Critical and also think that 2015 delistings will certainly shake a few up on this board!