Who will abide by the tribunal decision

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Bluesince62

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There is a lot of talk from both sides about the AFL putting in a fix. That may be the case regarding penalties but I cannot subscribe to the idea that the Tribunal with two former judges on board could be corrupted.

I for one will happily state that if the tribunal finds the players have no case to answer then they are totally innocent and I apologise to each and every Essendon supporter for vehemently suggesting they cheated.

If the tribunal finds them guilty then they are drug cheats plain and simple.

Who else will abide by the tribunal's decision ?
 
Apr 6, 2008
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Very black and white view. Not sure why a Carlton man has gone over to Collingwood.

Anyway, it's not a matter of them being drug cheats or being found innocent. The outcomes are:

1. They are not found guilty. This doesn't prove their innocence.

2. It is proven that they were given TB4 without them knowing exactly what it was. They are to be punished under the strict liability of doping.

Either way you can take the opinion out of this that you brought in. Also in this age of post truth politics and media we are all bombarded with heaps of words, data and noise. It is very hard to actually decipher the information so with half the population below intelligence, assuming a normal distribution, most people just pick and choose what they want.

In fact it goes deeper than that. It is a core part of what we are as an animal. The argumentative ape.

NewScientist_mai2012.pdf


http://www5.unine.ch/newsletter/medias_pdf/NewScientist_mai2012.pdf
 
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I have always said since day dot I just want to know what happens and then I will make my judgement. I've also been extremely meticulous on process. I have always been a believer in abiding by the umpires decision and my biggest pet peeve in football is people sooking about the umpire, when you may as well complain about the bounce of the ball.

That's why I for one am so pleased this isn't being resolved by a deal. The evidence is being tested in a properly constituted tribunal, and is subject to external review. There is no way to fudge this. Whilst I'd personally prefer it be a public hearing I understand why it probably won't, but I don't have any concerns about the legitimacy of the outcome whichever way it goes.

If there is no ADRV established and the players are cleared then I will be more than happy to accept that. After all, the level of proof required is comfortable satisfaction, not beyond reasonable doubt. If ASADA cannot make a case to comfortable satisfaction then that is pretty telling. I am sure others won't be, but I personally won't give a s**t.

On the flipside, if the evidence against the players sustains an ADRV, and penalties are meted out in line with the WADA code, then the exact same logic applies. The evidence has been rigorously tested against established quasi-judicial procedures and the case has been made. In those circumstances I will consider that the club I support has cheated (regardless of how much the players knew), and as a long-standing member I will demand the removal of anyone who was involved, including coaching staff and board members so that a clean start can occur and restitution can begin.

One way or another, it's happening. Praise geebus it's happening
 
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We are deep in the second half of this 22 month saga.

The first half concluded with zero action being taken on AOD.

Half-time score:

Majority 0 : The Rest 1

The majority now need a decisive victory here merely to level the match at 1:1.

It's close to extra time now, and despite a strong showing right through the second half, it would appear the Majority will fall a fraction short.

This could end up being a 2:0 belting.
 

Albert Ross

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Regardless of the tribunal decision I will believe that EFC ran an appalling ramshackle program, with the intent to push boundaries, and nothing in place to police whether or not they were at risk of crossing those boundaries. Officials tasked with observing doping rules were ambivalent at best in fulfilling their duties. They employed and contracted people proven to have been willing to work with banned substances. The players did not do enough to protect themselves.

Under the above environment it would have only been dumb luck that saw them not use something that was prohibited over the course of the whole program. If they are found guilty they can not have too much to complain about considering how massively likely their program would lead to accidents and mistakes.

But if the tribunal says that the evidence is not strong enough to prove individual cases to the extent of warranting bans; then so be it. Under that circumstance I will always think that the EFC dodged a bullet. That some or all of those charged may have been administered banned substances at some point, but the evidence is not strong enough to prove it. That they themselves may never know the truth of what actually happened.
 

Ancient Tiger

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Totally agree with LU.

Even with the information I obtained before this matter started, I have always felt that we should accept the tribunals decision. We need to accept this and move on. Immeasurable damage has already occurred to the Essendon brand. That is enough punishment even for those who think they are guilty but feel the players have somehow escaped any penalty.
If they are found guilty, then bomber supporters need to accept the punishment, however harsh or lenient it may be.

I think everyone is exhausted with this process and we all need closure.
 

Albert Ross

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We are deep in the second half of this 22 month saga.

The first half concluded with zero action being taken on AOD.

Half-time score:

Majority 0 : The Rest 1

The majority now need a decisive victory here merely to level the match at 1:1.

It's close to extra time now, and despite a strong showing right through the second half, it would appear the Majority will fall a fraction short.

This could end up being a 2:0 belting.

Your most ludicrous post yet. If this match goes to 1-1 it isn't a draw. It is 30-something proven dopers facing bans. If the TB4 case is proven the first half score is an irrelevancy.
 
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Your most ludicrous post yet. If this match goes to 1-1 it isn't a draw. It is 30-something proven dopers facing bans. If the TB4 case is proven the first half score is an irrelevancy.

Yes and no my good friend.

If it amounts to 2 years suspensions (with players missing all of 2015 and 2016), you'd have to call that an absolute knock out blow, worth 2 goals.

On the other hand, if the Tribunal use their discretion under sub-section 14.7 of the AFL anti-doping code and commence the period of probhibition on the last date that TB4 was administered, there would be a genuine debate about whether that is even worth a single goal.
 

Bluesince62

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We are deep in the second half of this 22 month saga.

The first half concluded with zero action being taken on AOD.

Half-time score:

Majority 0 : The Rest 1

The majority now need a decisive victory here merely to level the match at 1:1.

It's close to extra time now, and despite a strong showing right through the second half, it would appear the Majority will fall a fraction short.

This could end up being a 2:0 belting.
That is irrelevant to the OP. Will you go along with the Tribunal's decision or will you cry fix if the players are found guilty ?
 

Jesse Custer

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Totally agree with LU.

Even with the information I obtained before this matter started, I have always felt that we should accept the tribunals decision. We need to accept this and move on. Immeasurable damage has already occurred to the Essendon brand. That is enough punishment even for those who think they are guilty but feel the players have somehow escaped any penalty.
If they are found guilty, then bomber supporters need to accept the punishment, however harsh or lenient it may be.

I think everyone is exhausted with this process and we all need closure.

I'd like to think the majority supporters will accept the punishment. You'll get your few who will complain and all that sort of thing but that goes for both sides. Whatever happens it has to end soon, forget about the Essendon brand, the AFL brand in general.
 
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If they are found not guilty, I would like to here their evidence that led to that finding, I would still be very sketchy on the whole thing if their defence was: "Well we can't provide anything to show we didn't take PEDs, but you can't provide needle in the arm type evidence we did."

I hope that whatever happened the truth comes out and they are either rightfully punished, or rightfully let off.
 
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For me it depends. On all the evidence we have in the public domain, I'm thoroughly convinced that Essendon players were injected with Thymosin Beta 4 due to a program run by Dank, because Dank thought he was smart enough to find a loophole.

If the tribunal says there isn't enough evidence, that's not going to change my mind. To me, the evidence laid out in the charge sheet last year, plus the Zwitkowski report, plus the way Hird and Essendon officials have acted throughout the entire process (obfuscation and attempts to have evidence thrown out), make it plainly clear that they are guilty as charged.

If the tribunal comes out and actually challenges the veracity of the evidence (i.e. "oh the invoice actually says Thymomodulin, not TB4, and so does the consent forms!), then that will change my mind. But considering we're almost two years into the process, if there was actual evidence to the contrary, surely we would have seen it by now. Because why would anyone allow themselves to be put through this when they had evidence proving their innocence?

Do I believe the fix is in? Not to the degree of money exchanging hands or anything, no. I believe the AFL is exerting a significant amount of influence and pressure in an attempt to have the case thrown out with no suspensions.

I also think it's a bit naive to believe that just because the tribunal has two retired judges it is immune to corruption (though I wouldn't say it's corrupt). At the end of the day it's an AFL Tribunal. The AFL have a significant financial interest in seeing the case decided one way. They also have proven themselves to no really worry about integrity or transparency to any great degree (see the Melbourne 'not guilty but well fine you anyway' decision, the Swans trading ban, the conflicts of interest that exist through the entire industry, etc, etc, etc,)

People here seem to have this belief that just because we're in Australia, everything is on the level. The corrupt nature of sporting administrations is prevalent throughout the world - FIFA, IOC, FIA, UCI, etc. The American leagues have had plenty of corruption scandals (numerous allegations of draft rigging in the NBA, the concussion issue in the NFL, basically all the leagues turning a blind eye to their own doping problems, etc).

If it can happen there, there's no reason to suspect it can't happen here. And it's not surprising - sporting bodies are usually monopolistic enterprises dealing with massive amounts of money and are essentially answerable to no one. It's ripe for corruption. And to think it can't or doesn't happen in Australia is naive.

I mean, look at how the players have been treated by the media and the general public. The whole "I was duped" defence was accepted with basically no scrutiny. You take this exact same scenario, but instead it's a Chinese team or a South American team, there's no way the media acts the same way. It's laughable.

So no, I'm most likely not going to change my mind despite what the tribunal says. It's been as clear as day to anyone paying attention that the AFL has continually attempted to manipulate the outcome of this saga to their own benefit, and I don't see why that would stop now.
 
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That is irrelevant to the OP. Will you go along with the Tribunal's decision or will you cry fix if the players are found guilty ?

It's not irrelevant to the OP.

I will make the scoreboard 1:1, therefore I will have accepted that a goal has been scored.

Once the ref signals the goal, then it's a goal.

Although there was an event worth recalling from the 1982 World Cup, in which France smashed Kuwait 4:1. At some point the ref signalled another goal for Les Bleus, but the Kuwaitis remonstrated, saying that they had stopped playing because they heard a whistle which may have come from the crowd. They surrounded the ref, and after much pushing, shoving, gesticulating, etc, the ref actually reversed his decision and cancelled the goal.

I do not expect a repeat of this anytime soon.
 
Totally agree with LU.

Even with the information I obtained before this matter started, I have always felt that we should accept the tribunals decision. We need to accept this and move on. Immeasurable damage has already occurred to the Essendon brand. That is enough punishment even for those who think they are guilty but feel the players have somehow escaped any penalty.
If they are found guilty, then bomber supporters need to accept the punishment, however harsh or lenient it may be.

I think everyone is exhausted with this process and we all need closure.

I'm gonna go against the grain here and say: "Nah ferk that."

ASADA have been hamstrung by meddling politicans, a corrupt AFL, spin doctors, high priced silks and a recalcitrant defendant from day one( I dont begrudge Essendon trying to weasel out of it BTW, I just dont think it was the smart play). If ASADa dont manage to get this thing over the line that doesnt say to me that Essendon didnt give young healthy men horse drugs and alzheimers medicine (amongst other things). This isnt a court of law where evidence gets tested properly, it's a small federal dept. trying to make a tough case stick underfunded and understaffed and in the daily media spotlight.

I'm capable of thinking for myself and there is enough information on this thing that has come to light to say that Essendon got caught with their fingers in the cooky jar. The information from Baker and McKenzie's early investigations were damning enough on their own, in my view. Most of the rest has been noise. A couple of the savvy posters who've been here since the start like TerryWallet and blackshadow know bulldust and spin when they see it and I've been pretty much of like mind with them from early in the piece.

No doubt the Essendon supporters who come to this board will think i'm being close minded or a 'nuffy' but what the ferk do i care? They ve been regular contributors to the darndest thread in the history of the internetz!!! :D
 

Bluesince62

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If they are found not guilty, I would like to here their evidence that led to that finding, I would still be very sketchy on the whole thing if their defence was: "Well we can't provide anything to show we didn't take PEDs, but you can't provide needle in the arm type evidence we did."

I hope that whatever happened the truth comes out and they are either rightfully punished, or rightfully let off.
The rules are "to the comfortable satisfaction of the tribunal" or words to that effect. Personally, I trust the tribunal members to make a valid interpretation of that.
 
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I have always said since day dot I just want to know what happens and then I will make my judgement. I've also been extremely meticulous on process. I have always been a believer in abiding by the umpires decision and my biggest pet peeve in football is people sooking about the umpire, when you may as well complain about the bounce of the ball.

That's why I for one am so pleased this isn't being resolved by a deal. The evidence is being tested in a properly constituted tribunal, and is subject to external review. There is no way to fudge this. Whilst I'd personally prefer it be a public hearing I understand why it probably won't, but I don't have any concerns about the legitimacy of the outcome whichever way it goes.

If there is no ADRV established and the players are cleared then I will be more than happy to accept that. After all, the level of proof required is comfortable satisfaction, not beyond reasonable doubt. If ASADA cannot make a case to comfortable satisfaction then that is pretty telling. I am sure others won't be, but I personally won't give a s**t.

On the flipside, if the evidence against the players sustains an ADRV, and penalties are meted out in line with the WADA code, then the exact same logic applies. The evidence has been rigorously tested against established quasi-judicial procedures and the case has been made. In those circumstances I will consider that the club I support has cheated (regardless of how much the players knew), and as a long-standing member I will demand the removal of anyone who was involved, including coaching staff and board members so that a clean start can occur and restitution can begin.

One way or another, it's happening. Praise geebus it's happening
Complaining about umpires and booing. Two of the most pointless activities going around.
 
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