Who'll debut first? Blakely, Grey, Langdon or Weller?

[Clems Knee]

Maybe in a home game against Carlton (One of the worst teams in the league) give Weller/Blakely a crack over Suban as sub and see what we have.

Okay. So this is really just another Suban hate rant. Boring.

 

[Unique Name]

Okay. So this is really just another Suban hate rant. Boring.

Of course it is... and we can throw De Boer in too.

You don't replace your best players. You replace your fringe players.

 

[raffrox]

Dawson still has an injured hand, and yet he's named as emergency anyway.

And again: Neale, Sheridan, Sutcliffe and Crozier are not youth. They are 22 and 23 years old, close to the average age of an AFL player.

Look at our 2012 draft class:

Josh Simpson got one game in the St Kilda tank game, then one game as a sub (in which he was superb) then was dropped for an unfit Chris Mayne. He subsequently told the club to **** off and retired.
Tanner Smith has been given 1 game in 3 years. In the St Kilda tank game.
Max Duffy has been given 2 games (both as the sub) in 3 years. In one of those 2 games he only got to play for about 10 minutes.

2013 draft class:

Apeness has played 2 games
Alex Pearce debuted only after our first 3 choice key defenders were all injured (Johnson, Silvagni, Dawson). He'll likely be dropped when Johnson is available again.
Brady Grey yet to debut

2014 draft class:

Nobody has gotten a game yet.


So let's be pretty clear here: Ross Lyon doesn't play youth.

Whether that is the right decision or not is a different question. There is certainly a good argument that says he is right not to. But for the love of god stop pretending we are blooding youth.

With the exception of Alex Pearce who is playing because of an extremely unlikely string of injuries (3 players who play in the same position all being injured at the same time), the combined draft picks from our last 3 national AFL drafts have played a total of 7 games between them. And of those 7 games, 2 were in the St Kilda tank game, and 3 of them were as the sub only.

Your post suggests you are making a point but exact facts aren't completely important.

Blaming Ross for Josh Simpson proves this.

Where would you have Duffy play? In place of Ballas or Walters? Or now instead of Crozier?

 

[Van_Dyke]

Your post suggests you are making a point but exact facts aren't completely important.

Blaming Ross for Josh Simpson proves this.

Where would you have Duffy play? In place of Ballas or Walters? Or now instead of Crozier?

If Ross and the MC hadn't selected an obviously un-fit Mayne, Simpson probably would have played that game. Try playing Crozier in and around the midfield and let Duffy have a run as a forward IMO. Duffy was a major part in nearly getting a win against the cats, yet the next week he gets 10 minutes and then is dropped. He can win us games. The likes of Suban and DeBoer can't.

 

[ydraw]

Your post suggests you are making a point but exact facts aren't completely important.

Blaming Ross for Josh Simpson proves this.

Where would you have Duffy play? In place of Ballas or Walters? Or now instead of Crozier?

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I'm just pointing out that the people who keep mocking those who say "Ross doesn't play youth" are wrong. Because he doesn't.

I am not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing. But it is a true thing. Using Neale, Crozier, Sheridan and Sutcliffe as example of "Youth" is wrong. Those guys were drafted in 2011. They are approaching the prime of their careers.

There is only 1 guy in our team under 22: Alex Pearce. (Sheridan and Crozier turn 22 this year) And he only got a game because Johnson, Dawson and Silvagni were all injured at the same time.

So either everyone under 22 on our list is s**t or we have a policy that favours age and experience over talent.

 

[raffrox]

If Ross and the MC hadn't selected an obviously un-fit Mayne, Simpson probably would have played that game. Try playing Crozier in and around the midfield and let Duffy have a run as a forward IMO. Duffy was a major part in nearly getting a win against the cats, yet the next week he gets 10 minutes and then is dropped. He can win us games. The likes of Suban and DeBoer can't.

That's just sliding doors stuff. So it's Ross' fault that Simpson dropped his bundle?

Crozier hasn't demonstrated that he has the tank to play consistent midfield time.

We may doubt some of Ross' decisions but broad generalisations about him not playing youth is incorrect in my opinion.

 

[Grandstan]

Please let's create a new discussion somewhere about how Weller and Blakely should be playing instead of Suban and De Boer and how RTB doesn't play youth and then the same people can post the same thing thousands of times and I can just never read it.

 

[E Shed]

Please let's create a new discussion somewhere about how Weller and Blakely should be playing instead of Suban and De Boer and how RTB doesn't play youth and then the same people can post the same thing thousands of times and I can just never read it.

This thread is about the debuts of those players. Completely relevant.
Just stay out of this thread and you'll be fine.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

I think we're getting into semantics here. Where is the youth line? Mzungu, Duffield, DeBoer have all played WAFL games when Sheridan and Crozier have been in the team. That's enough for me to dismiss the Ross doesn't play youth line.

When we start getting into the Blakely/Langdon/Weller conversations is where it starts getting a bit ridiculous for me. We're lauding Hawthorn for playing O'Rourke - yet he was a 2012 draftee (no.2 at that!). Hartung I can give you but still it's not a Weller/Blakely/Langdon situation, it's a Grey situation - and I personally absolutely do not want Brady Grey playing a midfield or defensive role for us until his kicking improves a bit.

This is where I start channeling Salim, whose opinions on these kids I respect if not always agree with. We are talking about rewarding these kids who are playing well in the WAFL. Yes, that's fine. But when guys like DeBoer and Mzungu play in the WAFL they generally turn in BOG performances over and above what Weller, Blakely and Langdon do in the same game. So it starts to become a conversation about not actually rewarding the best WAFL performers, and playing the kids despite them being currently inferior footballers. I agree that's something we should do, however I don't think we should be under any illusions that that is what we're doing, and we're going to get inconsistent AFL performances out of them.

The Simpson stuff is ******* farcical. Yes, he probably didn't deserve to be dropped. But he was a very young kid who was practically guaranteed of getting dropped anyway when we reached full fitness. Practically no one of that age, not even at the shitful clubs or even Hawthorn never gets dropped. As we later found out, his issues with AFL football life where many and varied, and I think anyone who thinks that the dropping was a major factor in him leaving the AFL is a ******* moron.

 

[Grandstan]

This thread is about the debuts of those players. Completely relevant.
Just stay out of this thread and you'll be fine.

Starts off as a discussion about the relative strengths of the players, which is extremely interesting for those of us who don't get to Peel, quickly turns into same old whinge.

 

[Van_Dyke]

That's just sliding doors stuff. So it's Ross' fault that Simpson dropped his bundle?

Crozier hasn't demonstrated that he has the tank to play consistent midfield time.

We may doubt some of Ross' decisions but broad generalisations about him not playing youth is incorrect in my opinion.

Simpson probably would have dropped his bundle anyway, it just probably would have been at a different point. I definitely don't think that being dropped was the main reason that he quit anyway.

 

[E Shed]

This is where I start channeling Salim, whose opinions on these kids I respect if not always agree with. We are talking about rewarding these kids who are playing well in the WAFL. Yes, that's fine. But when guys like DeBoer and Mzungu play in the WAFL they generally turn in BOG performances over and above what Weller, Blakely and Langdon do in the same game. So it starts to become a conversation about not actually rewarding the best WAFL performers, and playing the kids despite them being currently inferior footballers. I agree that's something we should do, however I don't think we should be under any illusions that that is what we're doing, and we're going to get inconsistent AFL performances out of them.

Blakey consistently gets it over 30 times, Langdon has done so 2 out of 2. Weller gets lower numbers but creates play with precision kicking and vision. We know DeBoer or Mzungu can get 30 touches at WAFL level but we also know they get lower numbers, particularly DeBoer at the higher level and that they don't necessarily use it well. Thats kind of the point, we know what these players can do because we've seen it. We don't know what the other 3 can bring and we want to see it.

 

[holy diver]

Won't somebody think of the youth.

 

[E Shed]

Starts off as a discussion about the relative strengths of the players, which is extremely interesting for those of us who don't get to Peel, quickly turns into same old whinge.

You can't really discuss the subject of the thread "who will debut first" without discussing why they aren't debuting.
There is always the Peel thread if you just want to keep up on whats happening there.
Some of us enjoy this discussion. If you don't, then just don't comment. Thats all I do in threads that don't interest me or I think are going around in circles.

 

[E Shed]

Won't somebody think of the youth.

How does this add in any way to what is a legitimate discussion? If you want to roll your eyes and be above it all then there is no need to let everyone know that. Just roll your eyes and be above it all.

 

[Grandstan]

You can't really discuss the subject of the thread "who will debut first" without discussing why they aren't debuting.
There is always the Peel thread if you just want to keep up on whats happening there.
Some of us enjoy this discussion. If you don't, then just don't comment. Thats all I do in threads that don't interest me or I think are going around in circles.

Perhaps the "why they aren't debuting" question deserves more reflection other than bagging of current players.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

Blakey consistently gets it over 30 times, Langdon has done so 2 out of 2. Weller gets lower numbers but creates play with precision kicking and vision. We know DeBoer or Mzungu can get 30 touches at WAFL level but we also know they get lower numbers, particularly DeBoer at the higher level and that they don't necessarily use it well. Thats kind of the point, we know what these players can do because we've seen it. We don't know what the other 3 can bring and we want to see it.

Yes, I understand that.

However I personally think that DeBoer and Mzungu have turned in more dominant performances when they have played at WAFL level. More so than Blakely. More so than Weller. More so than Langdon. We can't consistently argue for 'WAFL form to be rewarded' at the same time as saying 'play Langdon/Weller/Blakely over DeBoer/Mzungu'. That's what gets my goat.

 

[holy diver]

How does this add in any way to what is a legitimate discussion? If you want to roll your eyes and be above it all then there is no need to let everyone know that. Just roll your eyes and be above it all.

Thank you for your feedback E Shed. As a long time contributor such as yourself, I enjoy the vast array of conversations in this football forum. At times, I find I don't agree with a persons opinion or post. What I don't do is admonish a poster and become a self-appointed content tester and follow it up with a whinge (in the serious forums such as our home forum here).

On what standards do you test every post? Do you apply this to everyone? I didn't realise you can declare what is a legitimate discussion is and is not. Outrage over an emoticon - are you for real?
Take a deep breath and try not to be a control freak. If something is not of value to you, move on.

This is why Australia is becoming a nanny state of people who find offense at anything it seems. It spurns out of control political correctness and gives validity and equal weight to clearly stupid movements (such as anti-vacc) because everything has to be seen on equal terms.

Perhaps you may like this more - I believe that Weller and Blakely's potential is obvious but as anyone can clearly see there has been no opportunity or reason to being them into the senior side at the moment. Being that they are young blokes, I tend to agree with those who do not see the need to throw them to wolves just yet. It would be nice to see them play a senior game this year though, no doubt.

 

[ydraw]

Suban's never played a good WAFL game in his life but he keeps getting selected in the firsts.

Duffield has been dropped 4 times this year and has come back with 17, 11, 15 and 23 disposals in his 4 WAFL games, yet never spent more than 1 week at a time there.

 

[rodney hoo]

It's a lot easier to go back and put in top line performances for a week or two in the wafl than continually do it. I actually agree with both sides of the argument in someway, ie age and experience is normally better than youth and exuberance but against the lesser sides even in our winning run we had to try a change or two to see if Weller, Blakely etc offer more than deboer, Suban as now we have no idea..

 

[darkshines]

(I know only based on rumour) Watching Lever today, if Weller ups stumps after a year or two ... think we'll be looking at a major shake up of our footy department ...

 

[E Shed]

I believe that Weller and Blakely's potential is obvious but as anyone can clearly see there has been no opportunity or reason to being them into the senior side at the moment. Being that they are young blokes, I tend to agree with those who do not see the need to throw them to wolves just yet. It would be nice to see them play a senior game this year though, no doubt.

And I guess that is where the point of contention is. Some say that there has been plenty of opportunities against the likes of Carlton to test one of them out as a sub, I can't see how we lose a lot bringing Weller on for 1 quarter v DeBoer or Suban (not picking on them but because they have been playing sub a lot). Its the lack of daring and the repeating of the same old same old and expecting a different result which is getting up some people's noses when combined with the way Hawks in particular but also the mob up the road seem to be getting stronger and stronger as the season goes.
I can see both sides of the argument but in this case I think we are playing it too safe. Plenty of footy to be played yet and we will find out in time if the coaches are getting it right. But I'd hate the bow out of the finals without having at least tried playing a few more of our cards.

 

[ydraw]

And I think a lot of people haven't yet worked out that our premiership window is this year and that's it. Without Sandilands and Pavlich we won't be serious contenders, so unless we pull off a miracle trading coup this year then this is our 1 shot. Not much point holding back someone who could improve the side until next year for the sake of "Development".

 

[Scham]

And I think a lot of people haven't yet worked out that our premiership window is this year and that's it. Without Sandilands and Pavlich we won't be serious contenders, so unless we pull off a miracle trading coup this year then this is our 1 shot. Not much point holding back someone who could improve the side until next year for the sake of "Development".

I'm actually coming around to the thinking that we can still do it without Sandi, but Pav and to a lesser extent, Macca we need.

 

[clogged]

Yes, that's the narrative, but they are battle hardened, for better or worse.

I think in the battle they're both quite ordinary. Suban especially has a pretty bad record of only playing great games against shithouse opposition.

People speak highly of these blokes' toughness, but I would have loved for one of them to have given a shitmixer to either Hodge or Mitchell. Instead the best you can hope from Suban is an angry face and a few jumper punches. I admire De Boer's ability to put his head over the ball, though. He's one of the braver players on the list.

For guys in the team as grunt, they don't actually do much grunting. Fyfe still gets bullied around the contest, none of Hill's taggers have ever had to take a second thought about tailing him.

That's why some of the reasons people cite why first year players haven't debuted don't ring true. Some of the fringe players currently in the side lack the same attributes that people say potential debutants do.