Expansion Why AFL fails miserably in Queensland

[Riccardo11]

It's not a 20 year project. It's a forever project. In 20 years RL will still dominate that market with Soccer as the nearest threat and Australian Rules will be a long way off. An AFL club will still be solely dependant on success pushed beyond merit for oxygen. You only need to look at Brisbane and Sydney to see this.

Then you have to ask why the AFL chose to add second teams into markets that have proven not to be able to independently support the first one. It's a terrible business plan, and I can't find one reason for it other than "to stick it up rival codes", which is fairly petty for a billion dollar a year business.

The NRL, for all it's faults, realize it is a game popular in certain areas, and by and large sticks to them without needlessly expanding beyond it's boundaries and shoehorning itself full time into markets where it isn't wanted.

 

[CarnDaTigg's]

Melbourne Storm is an example of a club from a non-local sport that has ingrained itself into the fabric of our cities sporting landscape in a relatively short space of time, though they aren't in the best shape financially since coming off the News Ltd ownership, they draw strong crowds and have a noticeable presence around town. I don't foresee GWS or Gold Coast managing that, even in 20 years, given the lack of attention paid to their bigger brothers. Even when the Swans and Lions are doing well League, Union and even Soccer talk still dominates papers, news and water cooler discussions in NSW and Qld.

It's not a lost cause, but the AFL might have been better to do the smart thing and bring in a Tasmanian side rather than rolling the dice in areas that, when it comes to Aussie Rules are at best apathetic, and at worst openly hostile.

What a terrible example. Storm are located in a city four times the size of Gold Coast yet average less fans at home games despite being around for 15 years longer and won a few flags and been consistently competitive.

Have you ever actually lived in QLD or NSW or are you talking out your arse?

 

[chiwigi]

I guess you never saw all sides of the story then. AFL expanded to SA and WA asthey knew that there are supporters there as an Aussie rules Mad state. Give Credit to the AFL in expanding to non Aussie rules states. In 100 years time they will have a bit of history behind them. West Coast, Adelaide, Freo, Port and Brisbane started from scratch and all have 20 years each behind them.

Oh behave yourself. If scratch is 1870 then yes we did, the Crows hardly came from nothing either, they were the other SANFL clubs. Now the Giant and the Suns (particularly the Giants) are from scratch.

 

[chiwigi]

Then you have to ask why the AFL chose to add second teams into markets that have proven not to be able to independently support the first one. It's a terrible business plan, and I can't find one reason for it other than "to stick it up rival codes", which is fairly petty for a billion dollar a year business.

The NRL, for all it's faults, realize it is a game popular in certain areas, and by and large sticks to them without needlessly expanding beyond it's boundaries and shoehorning itself full time into markets where it isn't wanted.

Only because it missed the boat with the Super League War.

 

[Riccardo11]

What a terrible example. Storm are located in a city four times the size of Gold Coast yet average less fans at home games despite being around for 15 years longer and won a few flags and been consistently competitive.

Have you ever actually lived in QLD or NSW or are you talking out your arse?

It's a pertinent example. Both clubs are expansion franchises in cities where the game is completely foreign. In terms of attendances, though GCS averages are slightly better overall (16,092 as opposed to 14,894 in 2014) the Storm were 7th in terms of average crowd numbers across the NRL, while Gold Coast were 17th in the AFL, only better than GWS. It;s not the size of the city that matters, it's the interest generated by the club. Melbourne manages to do it, and clearly, Gold Coast can't.

Given you incorrectly refer to NRL Premierships as "Flags", I don't think you have any leg to stand on talking about who is making things up. I have been an NRL supporter for 15 years, and a Storm member for 10 of those years.

 

[Riccardo11]

Only because it missed the boat with the Super League War.

Of the three clubs in "non-traditional" areas, Perth was created for the ARL, while Adelaide was a Super League club. Both continued on afterwards, but the NRL was smart enough to realize both were hemorrhaging money and fans, and wound them up quick smart. Melbourne has survived because of it's potential off field viability and large fan base, but did come close to folding in 2010.

 

[chiwigi]

Of the three clubs in "non-traditional" areas, Perth was created for the ARL, while Adelaide was a Super League club. Both continued on afterwards, but the NRL was smart enough to realize both were hemorrhaging money and fans, and wound them up quick smart. Melbourne has survived because of it's potential off field viability and large fan base, but did come close to folding in 2010.

They were never given a chance due to the fallout, fallout so bad that they booted the most successful team in rationalising. If the NRL had their chance again they would certainly not make the same mistakes again.

They have gone too conservative now though.

 

[Riccardo11]

They were never given a chance due to the fallout, fallout so bad that they booted the most successful team in rationalising. If the NRL had their chance again they would certainly not make the same mistakes again.

They have gone too conservative now though.

That is true. I truly think Perth deserves a second crack at an expansion side, they have more than proven they will be competitive with a sound state structure, great quality ground and very healthy crowds for recent matches.

But the NRL will put in Central Coast and a second Brisbane side next, because the time difference, travel factor and fear of failure will stop them doing what makes the most sense.

 

[CarnDaTigg's]

It's a pertinent example. Both clubs are expansion franchises in cities where the game is completely foreign. In terms of attendances, though GCS averages are slightly better overall (16,092 as opposed to 14,894 in 2014) the Storm were 7th in terms of average crowd numbers across the NRL, while Gold Coast were 17th in the AFL, only better than GWS. It;s not the size of the city that matters, it's the interest generated by the club. Melbourne manages to do it, and clearly, Gold Coast can't.

Given you incorrectly refer to NRL Premierships as "Flags", I don't think you have any leg to stand on talking about who is making things up. I have been an NRL supporter for 15 years, and a Storm member for 10 of those years.

Did you read that before you posted it?

AFL is 10x bigger in Qld than the Storm is in Vic despite Victorians historically being high sport attenders.

The Suns also had a higher average attendance than the Roosters, Titans, Cowboys, St George, Canterbury and Cronulla from NRL heartland. Which ever way you look at it they have gained acceptance of the local community and would be classified as a success

 

[Colonial]

It's not a 20 year project. It's a forever project. In 20 years RL will still dominate that market with Soccer as the nearest threat and Australian Rules will be a long way off. An AFL club will still be solely dependant on success pushed beyond merit for oxygen. You only need to look at Brisbane and Sydney to see this.

Sydney got less funding than most of the clubs down there. Brisbane dodnt get the most either.

 

[Colonial]

 

[Riccardo11]

Did you read that before you posted it?

AFL is 10x bigger in Qld than the Storm is in Vic despite Victorians historically being high sport attenders.

The Suns also had a higher average attendance than the Roosters, Titans, Cowboys, St George, Canterbury and Cronulla from NRL heartland. Which ever way you look at it they have gained acceptance of the local community and would be classified as a success

If that's true, why don't the average or total attendances reflect this? What do you have to back this claim up when all evidence available suggests the Storms market share, while relatively small, is at least a noticeable presence in the city of Melbourne while it appears not to be the case for the Suns on the Gold Coast.

The Suns have a higher average attendance than those NRL teams because attendance for AFL games is, on average, much larger than NRL. It also must be noted that the Suns had 11 home games, whereas most of the NRL clubs you mentioned had 12. If you compare total attendances, the NRL clubs broke even or even outdrew the Suns in total. Additionally, as I said, the Suns were 17th for average attendances in the AFL last year, which is obviously a troubling stat for them.

I would be happy to see that they have been claimed by the Gold Coast residents, but I can't accept that without something to back it up other than your word for it.

 

[CarnDaTigg's]

If that's true, why don't the average or total attendances reflect this? What do you have to back this claim up when all evidence available suggests the Storms market share, while relatively small, is at least a noticeable presence in the city of Melbourne while it appears not to be the case for the Suns on the Gold Coast.

The Suns have a higher average attendance than those NRL teams because attendance for AFL games is, on average, much larger than NRL. It also must be noted that the Suns had 11 home games, whereas most of the NRL clubs you mentioned had 12. If you compare total attendances, the NRL clubs broke even or even outdrew the Suns in total. Additionally, as I said, the Suns were 17th for average attendances in the AFL last year, which is obviously a troubling stat for them.

I would be happy to see that they have been claimed by the Gold Coast residents, but I can't accept that without something to back it up other than your word for it.

Why would you compare total attendances when there are not the same amount of games? That literally makes no sense.

Lets compare them to the other local team in the region in major sport the Gold Coast Titans. The suns average higher attendances (and have a higher total attendance) than the Titans despite the titans being established and smack bang in the middle of NRL heartland.

Compare this to the Melbourne Storm who would be a very clear last as far as Melbourne based clubs go in terms of attendances and you can clearly see there is much greater community engagement with the suns rather then the lions.

 

[Riccardo11]

Why would you compare total attendances when there are not the same amount of games? That literally makes no sense.

Lets compare them to the other local team in the region in major sport the Gold Coast Titans. The suns average higher attendances (and have a higher total attendance) than the Titans despite the titans being established and smack bang in the middle of NRL heartland.

Compare this to the Melbourne Storm who would be a very clear last as far as Melbourne based clubs go in terms of attendances and you can clearly see there is much greater community engagement with the suns rather then the lions.

Of course it makes sense, the average for 12 games is naturally lower than 11, so taking that into account several of the clubs that you said the Suns drew higher than is actually not the case, the total attendances are, in fact, lower.

I'd hardly call the Titans very much more established than the Suns, and the attendances for the club have always been poor, even more so now given the crisis engulfing the club and its rapidly deteriorating on and off field performances. The Gold Coast is not a sporting area at all, even though it is in Queensland, which is League territory, attendances for franchises in numerous sports indicate people on the Gold Coast don't attend sporting events in numbers as highly as in Brisbane or Townsville.

Melbourne Storm is not actually the lowest attended national league sporting side in Melbourne, they draw higher average attendances than the Rebels and Melbourne City, not to mention minor sports such as Baseball and Hockey. In their history they have regularly drawn as high or higher attendances when drawn head to head with AFL matches. Regardless of this, I fail to see the correlation between their attendance figures and the engagement of fans on the Gold Coast, or how that compares to the same with their cross state rival, the Brisbane Lions.

 

[telsor]

View attachment 142489

Did you bother reading the noted underneath?

A lot of the Vic clubs funding is really just money the clubs earned that was channeled through the AFL (like money from Etihad & AFL memberships).

You also might want to consider what the TV networks pay for...It's certainly not being forced to show NSW/QLD clubs at double digit ratings figures...

 

[screech]

I was referring to the "deathriding people's clubs". Be good to move Brisbane back to Fitzroy where they belong though.

Yeah, like we need anymore teams based in suburban Melbourne

Would be good to move out more

 

[Tbonefreo]

Those statements from Freomaniac and Bulldocker, with respect, approach attendance as representative of progress. It's a business measurement, a KPI, but it isn't progress. Offer tickets to any game for nothing and you'll get people attending, so it's not necessarily indicative of anything other than...how many people at the game. Progress in my eyes would be seeing more local parks and ovals with footy goal posts on them. More schools, especially state schools, having genuine school age competitions , kids running about bouncing sherrins, Josh Kennedy dropping in at a school prior to the Lions-Eagles game and a couple of kids knowing who the f*** he was....THAT'S progress.

Great post

 

[Colonial]

Did you bother reading the noted underneath?

A lot of the Vic clubs funding is really just money the clubs earned that was channeled through the AFL (like money from Etihad & AFL memberships).

You also might want to consider what the TV networks pay for...It's certainly not being forced to show NSW/QLD clubs at double digit ratings figures...

Its what is paid to each club

 

[ringleader]

I think the AFL and everyone need to wake up and smell the coffee. The GWS and Gold Coast experiments have failed. They gave it their best shot but it's just not working. Time to wrap it up.

http://thenewdaily.com.au/sport/2015/06/08/gold-coast-suns-afls-biggest-waste-cash/

 

[Colonial]

The qld clubs have the biggest injury lists in the game. Get over it

 

[happy_eagle]

We wern't saying this last year when they were winning
Robert Craddock (QLD Journalist) said that there is a portion of the QLD public that jump between codes depending on who is succesfull. There will always be the Bronco's, Cowboys, Reds etc.. fanbase.
The Brisbane Roar had a pretty significant increase in attendance when they were on top.

 

[Bulldocker]

Those statements from Freomaniac and Bulldocker, with respect, approach attendance as representative of progress. It's a business measurement, a KPI, but it isn't progress. Offer tickets to any game for nothing and you'll get people attending, so it's not necessarily indicative of anything other than...how many people at the game. Progress in my eyes would be seeing more local parks and ovals with footy goal posts on them. More schools, especially state schools, having genuine school age competitions , kids running about bouncing sherrins, Josh Kennedy dropping in at a school prior to the Lions-Eagles game and a couple of kids knowing who the f*** he was....THAT'S progress.

Fair enough. But there is nothing like a winner to get kids interested first IMO. They attend and soak up the winning spirit. Then from our experience, the Perth Glory championship and the Wildcats success was always followed by a spike in their sport's participation the following year. But I get what you're saying about providing the facility to play the game. Fair call.

 

[happy_eagle]

Fair enough. But there is nothing like a winner to get kids interested first IMO. They attend and soak up the winning spirit. Then from our experience, the Perth Glory championship and the Wildcats success was always followed by a spike in their sport's participation the following year. But I get what you're saying about providing the facility to play the game. Fair call.

Even to a lesser extent the Perth Heat and Baseball. Certainly has helped

 

[Freomaniac]

Oh behave yourself. If scratch is 1870 then yes we did, the Crows hardly came from nothing either, they were the other SANFL clubs. Now the Giant and the Suns (particularly the Giants) are from scratch.

I am aware the Ports history. I live around where you team is based. Ports AFL side stated from scratch from 1997. If Iwas going on your theory, the history of Aussie Rules dates in the Freo region dates back to 1885.

 

[telsor]

Its what is paid to each club

but you ignore why...