why are the Big4 uncompetitive?

[Gavin Excell]

Lots of money, resources etc yet seemingly further away than ever.

25 years ago recent flag winners Hawks and Cats were minnows

Cyclical or poorly managed?

 

[kickazz]

18 teams, not everyone can win.

Cyclical.

 

[DaVillaBlues]

The Sydney Swans got dealt a bad hand by late season ending injuries to a few stars, and Buddy's issues.

Wouldn't read too much into it, except to say West Coast clearly aren't as good a team as we all thought. And Freo are on the way down

I expect the Dogs, Richmond and Port to be knocking at the top 4 door next season.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Who are the big 4?
There is no big 4 in the AFL. If there is, it doesn't include some of the traditional big clubs.

 

[Deliverance]

18 teams, not everyone can win.

Cyclical.

Perhaps not as ingenious or hardworking as smaller clubs, because everything has come easier to them, being bigger clubs. Looking for shortcuts, like using drugs or breaching salary caps, dodgy Visy deals etc.

 

[kickazz]

Who are the big 4?
There is no big 4 in the AFL. If there is, it doesn't include some of the traditional big clubs.

Great question that deserves its own thread.

Maybe west coast and Adelaide for a start

 

[Tas]

Buckley, Hird, Malthouse

 

[Hawkk]

Lots of money, resources etc yet seemingly further away than ever.

25 years ago recent flag winners Hawks and Cats were minnows

Cyclical or poorly managed?

25 years ago Hawthorn had 8 flags in 20 years

1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988-89, 1991

Dont lump the Hawks in with the Cats

 

[Gavin Excell]

25 years ago Hawthorn had 8 flags in 20 years

1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988-89, 1991

Dont lump the Hawks in with the Cats

Geelong aren't big 4. are hawks?

 

[kickazz]

25 years ago Hawthorn had 8 flags in 20 years

1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988-89, 1991

Dont lump the Hawks in with the Cats

Dude, I go for the cats and loved it when we won and went out and enjoyed it. Pro tip: this thread is just trolling for the insecure who still need validation. Turn off big footy and turn on the replay FFS!

 

[Van_Dyke]

Rely on past reputation.

 

[Hawkk]

Geelong aren't big 4. are hawks?

I dunno but we most certainly werent minnows when we were lining up for our 8th GF in 9 years

This thread being about GF success and all that

 

[MWPP]

Equalization gone so far that it benefits middle/poorer teams

 

[Kram]

The so called big 4 thing is about as meaningful as club's membership figures.

 

[kickazz]

Big 3 always used to be Carlton Essendon Collingwood. Who is the fourth and when did this happen.

Genuine question

 

[Hawkk]

Dude, I go for the cats and loved it when we won and went out and enjoyed it. Pro tip: this thread is just trolling for the insecure who still need validation. Turn off big footy and turn on the replay FFS!

Awesome, dont lump a team (who 25 years ago absolutely dominated the competition) with the Cats

 

[Hydrurga]

Arrogance.

 

[footyfan1978]

Lots of money, resources etc yet seemingly further away than ever.

25 years ago recent flag winners Hawks and Cats were minnows

Cyclical or poorly managed?

Both. John Elliott put us in big debt and indirectly caused us to lose our home ground which was a very very important asset as a club as you would be aware as a Geelong fan. He also was too arrogant to embrace the new era that came in during his time of salary caps and drafts. We could not have been more poorly managed by a president than him in late 90's.
We are now just one of 18 clubs fighting for any ground we can make both on and off field.
We are at ground zero and as far away from a flag as we have ever been. The only good thing is the people in charge now of recruiting and coaching are well aware of how far off we are and are willing to put the hard yards in to build from ground up.

The cycles do happen though for all clubs. If you unearth 3 or 4 guns in the drafts over a few years anything is possible.
1 in 18 chance of a flag but it improves when you put together a quality list. When you do you got to make the most of it as Hawks are doing now , Geelong did a few years earlier and Lions did after turn of the century. When I look back I think North only getting two flags in the Wayne Carey, Longmire, Martyn, McKernan, Schwass, Archer, David King, Pickett and Stevens era is maybe not making the most of it. They probably should have won in 1998 but bad kicking for goal is bad football. Similarly Geelong dropped the bundle in 2008 but to some extent made up a little of the pain by getting the flag in 2011.

What is hard to fathom is St.Kilda never won a flag in the Winmar, Frawley, Lockett, Harvey, Burke, Loewe and McAdam era. They sacked coaches when they should have stayed fat. Poorly managed clubs can really cost you and lead to wasted years.

Geelong to also not win a flag with Ablett, Brownless, Couch, Bairstow, Hockings, Stoneham, Lindner, Hinkley and Bews is a missed opportunity. Least their club made up for it in another generation.

Money and resources are not the only factor but they give you a fighting chance to be in the mix. When you get in the mix, you got to cash in with premiership cups. Kudos to Hawks for doing it brilliantly in this era.

 

[Gavin Excell]

I dunno but we most certainly werent minnows when we were lining up for our 8th GF in 9 years

you were minnows membership wise compared to big 4 in the 80s and 90s, sustained success have seen you grow numbers.. Now a powerhouse but wasn't the same 25 years back

 

[Gavin Excell]

Both. John Elliott put us in big debt and indirectly caused us to lose our home ground which was a very very important asset as a club as you would be aware as a Geelong fan. He also was too arrogant to embrace the new era that came in during his time of salary caps and drafts. We could not have been more poorly managed by a president than him in late 90's.
We are now just one of 18 clubs fighting for any ground we can make both on and off field.
We are at ground zero and as far away from a flag as we have ever been. The only good thing is the people in charge now of recruiting and coaching are well aware of how far off we are and are willing to put the hard yards in to build from ground up.

The cycles do happen though for all clubs. If you unearth 3 or 4 guns in the drafts over a few years anything is possible.
1 in 18 chance of a flag but it improves when you put together a quality list. When you do you got to make the most of it as Hawks are doing now , Geelong did a few years earlier and Lions did after turn of the century. When I look back I think North only getting two flags in the Wayne Carey, Longmire, Martyn, McKernan, Schwass, Archer, David King, Pickett and Stevens era is maybe not making the most of it. They probably should have won in 1998 but bad kicking for goal is bad football. Similarly Geelong dropped the bundle in 2008 but to some extent made up a little of the pain by getting the flag in 2011.

What is hard to fathom is St.Kilda never won a flag in the Winmar, Frawley, Lockett, Harvey, Burke, Loewe and McAdam era. They sacked coaches when they should have stayed fat. Poorly managed clubs can really cost you and lead to wasted years.

Geelong to also not win a flag with Ablett, Brownless, Couch, Bairstow, Hockings, Stoneham, Lindner, Hinkley and Bews is a missed opportunity. Least their club made up for it in another generation.

Good post. That's what makes Hawks so good. When win the opportunity presents. I can count at least 3 we let slip since 1989. In last 30 years what could Hawks say got away? 2012?

 

[Hawkk]

you were minnows membership wise compared to big 4 in the 80s and 90s, sustained success have seen you grow numbers.. Now a powerhouse but wasn't the same 25 years back

Except Hawthorn (12388) and Geelong (13535) both had larger membership than Carlton (12354) Essendon (10034) and Richmond (8184) back in 1992 according to the wookies website

Like I said 25 years ago they were nothing like minnows

In fact on field success now reflects late 80s / early 90s dominance

 

[kickazz]

Awesome, dont lump a team (who 25 years ago absolutely dominated the competition) with the Cats

Perish the thought. I think the feeling is mutual! Enjoy the night.. ..

 

[Gavin Excell]

Except Hawthorn (12388) and Geelong (13535) both had larger membership than Carlton (12354) Essendon (10034) and Richmond (8184) back in 1992 according to the wookies website

Like I said 25 years ago they were nothing like minnows

In fact on field success now reflects late 80s / early 90s dominance

accept membership figures quoted but to think Geelong better supported than Tigers Blues and
Dons is deluded

 

[Lensen]

Poorly run with an air of arrogance that it will come because they are big

Some more than others but all guilty of it

 

[footyfan1978]

Good post. That's what makes Hawks so good. When win the opportunity presents. I can count at least 3 we let slip since 1989. In last 30 years what could Hawks say got away? 2012?

Not really any. If anything they probably won about three more than they should have expected in my view. I was at the 2012 grand final. Two even teams. Swans just slightly better so that certainly did not get away. 2008 was a gift from the football gods in particular.
There been a few flags they have won when I did not believe they had the best talent of top few teams but they were the ones that made the most of their window of opportunity so they have grabbed opportunity better than any club in my time of watching football.