Wilkie has referred the Abbott Government to the International Criminal Court

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I don't think this constitutes a defence.

The minister is responsible for us meeting our international obligations, if Australia is systemically and deliberately ignoring these, violating the human rights of children, some of which the minister has direct responsibility to protect and it can be established, as it was in the report that denial of rights has constituted cruel and unusual treatment, then I think he could be in genuine trouble.

I think a strong case could be mounted that noted violations and a case against Morrison meet the admissability and jurisdictional requirements, where treatment of children falls under other inhumane acts and imprisonment /severe deprivation of liberty.

The definitions used by CROC aren't directly binding re the ICC, but they can be used as part of a submission, to make a case that mandatory detention of children as a default policy meets a threshold for investigation, on the allegation of imprisonment / severe deprivation of liberty, likewise, where denial of medication, access to mental health support, sexual abuse and assault of minors under the ministers care is considered cruel and unusual treatment via croc, it may meet the threshold for other inhumane acts.

The line of accountability is pretty direct when it comes to unnacompanied minors, given that current circumstances are the resault of a default policy, likewise direct ministerial interference, it would be easy to make the case they are systemic .

The defense is..."If you want to prosecute us, then we insist you investigate all other camps by similar standards". UN thinks for a second and "Case dismissed".

Alternatively, Australia could promise to maintain it's camps to the same standard as UN camps throughout the world....Of course, it would mean dropping of standards across the board, and subjecting people to a lot of crap from the locals, but hey...If that's the 'standard'.

If being far better than the rest in 9/10 areas means we get prosecuted because number 10 is only slightly better, then the easiest solution is to drop the other 9 to the 'usual' levels.

People in our camps have running water, electricity, internet, sewerage, education.....For 99% of refugees, that's heaven.
 

carnthemlions

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Tell me, if these people are 'just' fleeing a crisis, how did they get from the middle east to Australia? Was there nowhere on the way that they could stop safely?

Fact is, we take over 13% of the WORLDs resettled refugees. Per capita (and by GDP), we are easily the highest. The only country that takes more in absolute numbers is the USA (they take ~66% of the worlds intake). Roughly 1 in every 1773 people in this country was a refugee accepted in 2013 alone.

We do a lot, more than practically anyone else and frankly I'm sick of being told what bastards we are for doing it.
As PbN said, this doesn't constitute a defence.
Conditions in refugee camps are irrelevant.
It does when what you've done is bought to a public forum.

So when you ask yourself something do you ignore it because of the fact you are a simpleton???
lulz
The defense is..."If you want to prosecute us, then we insist you investigate all other camps by similar standards". UN thinks for a second and "Case dismissed".

Alternatively, Australia could promise to maintain it's camps to the same standard as UN camps throughout the world....Of course, it would mean dropping of standards across the board, and subjecting people to a lot of crap from the locals, but hey...If that's the 'standard'.

If being far better than the rest in 9/10 areas means we get prosecuted because number 10 is only slightly better, then the easiest solution is to drop the other 9 to the 'usual' levels.

People in our camps have running water, electricity, internet, sewerage, education.....For 99% of refugees, that's heaven.
Why are you so obsessed with refugee camps? Do you know what the purpose of a refugee camp is?
 

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Why are you so obsessed with refugee camps? Do you know what the purpose of a refugee camp is?

To house refugees until they are either repatriated or resettled. Exactly as Manus Island and Nauru are.

Why do you think these are not refugee camps?
 

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The defense is..."If you want to prosecute us, then we insist you investigate all other camps by similar standards". UN thinks for a second and "Case dismissed".

Alternatively, Australia could promise to maintain it's camps to the same standard as UN camps throughout the world....Of course, it would mean dropping of standards across the board, and subjecting people to a lot of crap from the locals, but hey...If that's the 'standard'.

If being far better than the rest in 9/10 areas means we get prosecuted because number 10 is only slightly better, then the easiest solution is to drop the other 9 to the 'usual' levels.

People in our camps have running water, electricity, internet, sewerage, education.....For 99% of refugees, that's heaven.
Firstly, that isn't a defence. Secondly, the ICC does not come under direct jurisdiction of the UN.

Thirdly, the issue isn't relative conditions of a camp. The issue is manditory detention of children. If this is a default policy, it meets the criteria of both being deliberate and systemic, when it comes to rights violations or inadequate care and abuse of minors, particularly those where ministerial responsibility is applicable. If the minister interferes directly and his decisions lead to a worsening of care or conditions considered "cruel and unusual treatment" , he can be held culpable as the children are interred in detention as policy .

coz un camps are bad, doesn't change the grounds for allegation
 
Firstly, that isn't a defence. Secondly, the ICC does not come under direct jurisdiction of the UN.

Thirdly, the issue isn't relative conditions of a camp. The issue is manditory detention of children. If this is a default policy, it meets the criteria of both being deliberate and systemic, when it comes to rights violations or inadequate care and abuse of minors, particularly those where ministerial responsibility is applicable. If the minister interferes directly and his decisions lead to a worsening of care or conditions considered "cruel and unusual treatment" , he can be held culpable as the children are interred in detention as policy .

coz un camps are bad, doesn't change the grounds for allegation

In legal terms, perhaps not, but in the reality of politics it matters a great deal.
 

carnthemlions

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In legal terms, perhaps not, but in the reality of politics it matters a great deal.
Nice deflection.
Your argument is basically "yeah but there are bad refugee camps in poor countries".
plz
To house refugees until they are either repatriated or resettled. Exactly as Manus Island and Nauru are.

Why do you think these are not refugee camps?
By forcibly detaining them in other countries?
 
Nice deflection.
Your argument is basically "yeah but there are bad refugee camps in poor countries".
plz

My point is complaining about the conditions here when 99% of similar camps are far worse is silly.

By forcibly detaining them in other countries?

You think refugees that enter other countries don't get (forcibly) 'told' where to go?

As for where they're detained, as per international refugee law, they get detained in the first safe port they enter. How they get there is beside the point. Doesn't need to be the nearest port after all (witness Sri Lankan/Tamil refugees who sail past several closer options to get to Aus).
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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In legal terms, perhaps not, but in the reality of politics it matters a great deal.
I don't see how. Australia has been criticised directly by the UNHCR, and many in the wider international community.

Both national and international investigations into our treatment of asylum seekers, have found that we areguilty of numerous human rights violations, along with breaching our obligations under croc.

It's not like wilkie is a lone voice and given the governments efforts to stymie an investigation into sri lanka , they are not going to win much support to sidetrack this issue . At the moment they are very much seen as the bad guys , press coverage is almost uniformly bad and support of sri lanka has caused diplomatic ructions
 
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I don't see how. Australia has been criticised directly by the UNHCR, and many in the wider international community.

Both national and international investigations into our treatment of asylum seekers, have found that we areguilty of numerous human rights violations, along with breaching our obligations under croc.

It's not like wilkie is a lone voice and given the governments efforts to stymie an investigation into sri lanka , they are not going to win much support to sidetrack this issue

Good pick up on Sri Lanka!
 
I don't see how. Australia has been criticised directly by the UNHCR, and many in the wider international community.

Both national and international investigations into our treatment of asylum seekers, have found that we areguilty of numerous human rights violations, along with breaching our obligations under croc.

It's not like wilkie is a lone voice and given the governments efforts to stymie an investigation into sri lanka , they are not going to win much support to sidetrack this issue . At the moment they are very much seen as the bad guys , press coverage is almost uniformly bad and support of sri lanka has caused diplomatic ructions

Great....We 'reform' our camps to UN standards.

No detention...gates are opened...Of course, like camps in most of the world, inmates wont be allowed to leave the general area, work, sleep outside the fenced area or fraternise with the locals, violation meaning immediate deportation (that enforcement and judgement is left up to the locals will mean widespead abuse is just the cost of following the standards of the UN...Of course, we'll tut tut loudly when told of such abuses, just like the UN does).

What else?
Running water? nah...we'll give them a tap a few KM away and let them carry the water themselves...As per UN standards.
Sewerage? Bulldoze the dunnies, give 'em a shovel and point to a good area to did their pits.
Electricity? Cut! (might as well take the computers away and internet access away now).
Food? Well, with no guards, we can't assure the cooks of safety, so we'll just have to bulldoze the kitchens as well and drop off UN approved bags of grain & vegies (low grade, but sourced from Aus at premium prices, and charged against our UN dues). Of course, as per UN standard, we'll deliver barely enough, and the locals will pilfer a fair slice of that.
Accommodation? Well, those huts aren't standard...bulldoze them and we'll acquire some surplus tents from the army/local scout groups. Of course, we'll charge for them at replacement cost against our UN dues.
Medical care? I'm sure a small donation to MSF/Red Cross will cover that.

There...much close to 'UN standard', all without mandatory detention...problem solved!


Sorry, forgot one more thing...Resttlement.
Let's drop that to the per capita average of G20 countries, so instead on ~13,500, we'll take...about 50 or so.
 
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Worked for Wilkie himself when he first came to public attention.

Made claims from his time at ONA which he knew the Government wouldn't refute due to National Security and people were falling over themselves to believe everything he was saying was gospel.

Bloke's an opportunistic knob.

How many politicial parties and states has he moved between trying to get himself / keep himself on the public tit?

Whether or not you agree with what he's doing in this instance, to me it smacks of someone who's missing the limelight a bit and thought it was time he put his head up again. Probably thinks it's been long enough since he rolled over to Labor with his pokie reforms.
What has this got to do with my post?
 

poller

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Question is if the icc prosecutor agrees with wilkie that there is a need for investigating this incompetent government handling of asylum seekers , will Abbott and cronies stand down.
 

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mottrain

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Question is if the icc prosecutor agrees with wilkie that there is a need for investigating this incompetent government handling of asylum seekers , will Abbott and cronies stand down.
Then by this logic you'd expected Gillard to have stood down as pm.
 

medusala

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Refugee camps are run by the Red Cross or the UN not individual countries most of the time, the old all countries are doing it doesn't wash because it's crap, we're about the only one, who is treating it refugee problem in this way, and it's time those responsible for it sit down and make themselves answerable for it.

You must be kidding. See how the French, Italians, Greeks etc treat asylum seekers and that's before we even get to Asian countries.

Few things make one laugh as much as those who fall for the "Australia is an international pariah due to its treatment of asylum seekers" fairy tale.

Wilkie and Bob Brown. They have about as much to offer as Greg Campbell did to the test team.

. At the moment they are very much seen as the bad guys , press coverage is almost uniformly bad and support of sri lanka has caused diplomatic ructions

Lol. ABC and Fairfax. How is the ABC going with their allegations against the navy?

#omeletteonface
 

poller

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Then by this logic you'd expected Gillard to have stood down as pm.
If this was labor , no doubt the pro coalition media , Abbott and his cronies would be calling for them to stand down.

News ltd would be having big headlines every day calling for Gillard, Rudd to stand down and call the election
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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AKA..None of this I can dispute rationally without acknowledging that we do the vast majority of stuff right.
Nope. We don't.

Denial of access to medication and health services. Poor sanitation. Issues with access to food, water and suitable living conditions. Denial of access to mental health support. Sexual, physical and mental abuse of children under state care. Alteration of medical records. Mandatory detention of minors. The UN report found 150 human rights violations at a centre. Another found children were subject to creul and unusual treatment. You pretending it's adequate and not inhumane, does not make things so.

You have ignored the explanation as to why specifically the submission could spell trouble for the government.

You have not supplied evidence that other refugee camps are worse.

You have not shown how this is relevant to the submission.

You have not shown how temporary camps, run by NGO's, where underfunding is an issue, are the same as detention centres, run by a government, that has specific control over funding, policy implementation and treatment of detainees.

You have not been able to refute that we have severely denied, or impinged the human rights of children in state care.

Nor have you been able to demonstrate how the minister is not responsible.

You have not been able to show that mandatory detention of minors, does not violate our international obligations.

All you have done, is state that somewhere, somehow, there may be refugees living in worse conditions.
 

B4Bear

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Question is if the icc prosecutor agrees with wilkie that there is a need for investigating this incompetent government handling of asylum seekers , will Abbott and cronies stand down.

Only people that can feel shame would stand down. So in answer to your question.... NO.
 

Todman

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My brother's first wife was a twenty one year old Chinese bird that he married so he could get permanent residency in Canada, they came out one Christmas and grand times were had by all, she could party. Marriage lasted two years which was eighteen months longer than most of us though it would last. I included a list of divorce lawyers in Vancouver inside their first anniversary card.

Do you really do that? Did you not like your sister-in-law? did your brother marry for , love, residency or the chance to get some young pussy?
 

Belnakor

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All you have done, is state that somewhere, somehow, there may be refugees living in worse conditions.

May be? Maybe you should read something even as simple as this: http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323932604579052742703621858

this place http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fe...gee-camp-kenya-somalis-20145164919295645.html sounds like they are having a whale of a time - maybe they should do a swap? I'm sure the refugees in our camps would be happy to swap places, since our camps are so bad right?
 

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