Review Winners and Losers in the Draft

[liz]

I meant in terms of value for money. You probably could have got Boekhorst at 28, but then I guess you wouldn't have got Rainbow.

Not necessarily. They could have taken Rainbow at 19 instead...

 

[TN25]

Not necessarily. They could have taken Rainbow at 19 instead...

Why would it matter whether they took DVR at 19 and Boekhorst at 28 or DVR at 28 and Boekhorst at 19?

 

[doona]

Why would it matter whether they took DVR at 19 and Boekhorst at 28 or DVR at 28 and Boekhorst at 19?

So bigfooty doesn't go into meltdown

 

[Monkey King]

Docherty didn't play ever game this year so stats can lie as Sutcliffe played 7 more games.

It's only 7 games, so not significant when it comes to sorting out season averages. It's not like Doc only played 7 games. What is of more value in this observation is why those 7 games were missed, which makes his seasons stats even more impressive.

Champion Data also ranks Docherty ahead btw. While that's nothing definitive, it's just another piece of evidence for the growing pile.

Sutcliffe and Docherty are from the same draft and that is all that matters, they have both been in an AFL environment the same amount of time.

As I said, both have equal exposure to an AFL environment, which does mitigate the impact of age difference, but it doesn't entirely exclude it. That's just nonsense. You're comparing a 22yo to a 20yo and want to just ignore the age difference. Along with your "stats lie because of 7 games" claim, this is all points to a pretty severe case of confirmation bias.

In terms of impact and game changing ability I think Sutcliffe is miles ahead, well maybe the miles was an exaggeration, but he is certainly ahead.

And yet everything that suggests otherwise is just dismissed or ignored by you.

Nah. You've missed something with Docherty. I'd say it's due to that incident embedding an impression of the player in your mind; an impression you're unable at this point to overcome, regardless of the facts.

 

[Moist Biscuit]

It's only 7 games, so not significant when it comes to sorting out season averages. It's not like Doc only played 7 games. What is of more value in this observation is why those 7 games were missed, which makes his seasons stats even more impressive.

Champion Data also ranks Docherty ahead btw. While that's nothing definitive, it's just another piece of evidence for the growing pile.



As I said, both have equal exposure to an AFL environment, which does mitigate the impact of age difference, but it doesn't entirely exclude it. That's just nonsense. You're comparing a 22yo to a 20yo and want to just ignore the age difference. Along with your "stats lie because of 7 games" claim, this is all points to a pretty severe case of confirmation bias.



And yet everything that suggests otherwise is just dismissed or ignored by you.

Nah. You've missed something with Docherty. I'd say it's due to that incident embedding an impression of the player in your mind; an impression you're unable at this point to overcome, regardless of the facts.

So in say 3 years time when Boekhurst is 24, we should rate him against other 24 year olds and not the players from the same draft as him? That's stupid IMO. It doesn't matter what age you are, if you have more or less AFL exposure then someone it's going to make a difference. And the Sutcliffe/Docherty thing, I can pull out plenty of times this year when Sutty has done a job which has won us a game or atleast impacted the result of the game, from the 10-12 games I've watched Docherty play, I haven't ever had a moment where I've gone "wow Carlton are so lucky they have him". He will most likely go on to be a good player, but hasn't proved anything to me as of yet.

 

[gillo94]

So in say 3 years time when Boekhurst is 24, we should rate him against other 24 year olds and not the players from the same draft as him? That's stupid IMO. It doesn't matter what age you are, if you have more or less AFL exposure then someone it's going to make a difference. And the Sutcliffe/Docherty thing, I can pull out plenty of times this year when Sutty has done a job which has won us a game or atleast impacted the result of the game, from the 10-12 games I've watched Docherty play, I haven't ever had a moment where I've gone "wow Carlton are so lucky they have him". He will most likely go on to be a good player, but hasn't proved anything to me as of yet.

Bit harsh on Doc, since he has played this year I have seen a lot of promise in him, he brings plenty to the table and even in most top6 sides I believe would be a regular or close to it, honestly the kid is a joy to watch. Happy we got him last year

My point is that Demons lack a player in defense like Doc that can create and run, sure he will make mistakes but that is common with inexperience. Demons can stock up on 10 midfielders over 2 trade/draft period but without a solid running defense then midfielders will lack getting the ball and opposing sides can find ways to keep the ball their and hold a team under seige for big chunks of a game.

Jack Watts was primarily used here but feel a player like Jack needs to play to his strengths on the wings, or will become wasted talent

If I was part of Demons recruiting staff, I would 100% sacrifice 1 hard-inside midfielder for 2 medium size running defenders that can use the ball and run.

Demons al ready setting up next crop of defenders in Oscar McDonald, Frost but mainly Talls and to help cover loss of Frawley.
Midfielders Newton & ANB are very handy editions but I still see the issues I have mentioned above

I'm sure Paul Roos is happy working with a midfield brigade such as;
Tyson - Jones - Watts - Salem
Vince - Viney - Toumpas - Newton
ANB & one of Petracca or Brayshaw
IF IT MEANS has 2 medium defenders also developing at same time

Do you think Paul Roos at Swans neglected his defense having guys like Craig Bolton, Kennelly, Jared Crouch and Fosdike?

 

[gillo94]

Deal. Should help offset the loss of a few club stalwarts, namely Jason Tutt, Christian Howard and Tom Young.

I think Jason will be ok, love plsyers with good pace. Has abit of work to do but think Mick will give him every opportunity to get game time at senior level

 

[Andy_Mac]

Bit harsh on Doc, since he has played this year I have seen a lot of promise in him, he brings plenty to the table and even in most top6 sides I believe would be a regular or close to it, honestly the kid is a joy to watch. Happy we got him last year

My point is that Demons lack a player in defense like Doc that can create and run, sure he will make mistakes but that is common with inexperience. Demons can stock up on 10 midfielders over 2 trade/draft period but without a solid running defense then midfielders will lack getting the ball and opposing sides can find ways to keep the ball their and hold a team under seige for big chunks of a game.

Jack Watts was primarily used here but feel a player like Jack needs to play to his strengths on the wings, or will become wasted talent

If I was part of Demons recruiting staff, I would 100% sacrifice 1 hard-inside midfielder for 2 medium size running defenders that can use the ball and run.

Demons al ready setting up next crop of defenders in Oscar McDonald, Frost but mainly Talls and to help cover loss of Frawley.
Midfielders Newton & ANB are very handy editions but I still see the issues I have mentioned above

I'm sure Paul Roos is happy working with a midfield brigade such as;
Tyson - Jones - Watts - Salem
Vince - Viney - Toumpas - Newton
ANB & one of Petracca or Brayshaw
IF IT MEANS has 2 medium defenders also developing at same time

Do you think Paul Roos at Swans neglected his defense having guys like Craig Bolton, Kennelly, Jared Crouch and Fosdike?

The role you are talking about will be filled by two of: Lamumba, Salem, Grimes, Watts, Toumpas, Vince or Strech. All of which are superior or are comparable in ability/potential to Doc.

Core midfield is: Jones, Tyson, Viney, Petracca, Brayshaw, Trengove, Newton, Mitchie and ANB.

Your trade suggestion is ridiculous. We have plenty of players (both current and future) to fill the suggested HBF role.

 

[gillo94]

The role you are talking about will be filled by two of: Lamumba, Salem, Grimes, Watts, Toumpas, Vince or Strech. All of which are superior or are comparable in ability/potential to Doc.

Core midfield is: Jones, Tyson, Viney, Petracca, Brayshaw, Trengove, Newton, Mitchie and ANB.

Your trade suggestion is ridiculous. We have plenty of players (both current and future) to fill the suggested HBF role.

Let's agree that we shall put the discussion of my trade proposal to rest, as no Demons supporter seems to agree plus pointless talking about it now as most lists are finalised and teams are in training

 

[Monkey King]

So in say 3 years time when Boekhurst is 24, we should rate him against other 24 year olds and not the players from the same draft as him? That's stupid IMO. It doesn't matter what age you are, if you have more or less AFL exposure then someone it's going to make a difference.

Umm ... didn't I just say that very thing in my post? Of course time in the system is going to make a difference; so is having come through the elite junior system; and so is age. Ignoring one and promoting another is just nonsense.

As for your Boekhurst example, you're not going to compare him to other draftees this year or next either, despite only having been in the system for the same time. Why? Because of his age. Just like you wouldn't compare to people of the same age. Why? Because of time in the system. You catching on yet?

And the Sutcliffe/Docherty thing, I can pull out plenty of times this year when Sutty has done a job which has won us a game or atleast impacted the result of the game, from the 10-12 games I've watched Docherty play, I haven't ever had a moment where I've gone "wow Carlton are so lucky they have him".

And how many opposition supporters do you reckon have gone "wow Freo are so lucky they have Sutcliffe"?

You don't need to go far to find a game where Doc impacted the result - 3rd game in for the club against the Crows, including an impressive round the corner goal from the boundary line. Backed it up the following week with a really good game against his former club. Already by this time I was thinking we were pretty lucky to have picked him up. Finished 9th in the B&F with just 17 games to boot.

 

[bluengold89]

So in say 3 years time when Boekhurst is 24, we should rate him against other 24 year olds and not the players from the same draft as him? That's stupid IMO. It doesn't matter what age you are, if you have more or less AFL exposure then someone it's going to make a difference. And the Sutcliffe/Docherty thing, I can pull out plenty of times this year when Sutty has done a job which has won us a game or atleast impacted the result of the game, from the 10-12 games I've watched Docherty play, I haven't ever had a moment where I've gone "wow Carlton are so lucky they have him". He will most likely go on to be a good player, but hasn't proved anything to me as of yet.

Yeah but that's because he plays for the team you support. You always pay attention more to individual players of your own team, whereas when you're watching other teams play you're far less likely to notice the role players.

I watched every Fremantle game this season, and to be honest I didn't notice Sutcliffe that much. He's not flashy or an accumulator so unless you're paying particular attention to him you're not going to notice the important role he plays.

Guys like Docherty and Sutcliffe are always going to be underrated by supporters of other clubs, where as their own supporters will love them.

 

[Moist Biscuit]

Umm ... didn't I just say that very thing in my post? Of course time in the system is going to make a difference; so is having come through the elite junior system; and so is age. Ignoring one and promoting another is just nonsense.

As for your Boekhurst example, you're not going to compare him to other draftees this year or next either, despite only having been in the system for the same time. Why? Because of his age. Just like you wouldn't compare to people of the same age. Why? Because of time in the system. You catching on yet?



And how many opposition supporters do you reckon have gone "wow Freo are so lucky they have Sutcliffe"?

You don't need to go far to find a game where Doc impacted the result - 3rd game in for the club against the Crows, including an impressive round the corner goal from the boundary line. Backed it up the following week with a really good game against his former club. Already by this time I was thinking we were pretty lucky to have picked him up. Finished 9th in the B&F with just 17 games to boot.

I'm sick of having to explain my reasoning as to why I don't rate Docherty as a player, so I'm gonna leave it at this, I don't think he is composed enough in times with immense pressure, it's my opinion so you don't have to agree with it, in subscribing to this post as it's giving me far too many notifications, feel free to bump if Docherty wins a Brownlow though and I'll do the same if he's delisted.

 

[GoTigers2015]

Clem Smith at 60 was Carlton's best pick of the draft. If I could change one of Richmond's picks, it would be Smith instead of Drummond at 52.

Not much in it. Drummond is a super athlete but needs to improve his kicking.

Doesn't changed the fact that Carlton bottled it with their first pick, Surely Laverde / Boekhorst is a better combination then Boekhorst / Viojo-Rainbow?

 

[richoatthedisco]

Not much in it. Drummond is a super athlete but needs to improve his kicking.

Plenty in it for me. Smith had a typical subdued 18yo year after a brilliant 17yo year. Drummond had a very good 19yo year after not being on the radar as an 18yo. Nonetheless, Smith played 10 WAFL games, averaging 15.5 disposals; Drummond played 3 VFL games, averaging 9.3 touches. I will back Smith in to have the better career.

Doesn't changed the fact that Carlton bottled it with their first pick, Surely Laverde / Boekhorst is a better combination then Boekhorst / Viojo-Rainbow?

I'd agree with that.

 

[Monkey King]

I'm sick of having to explain my reasoning as to why I don't rate Docherty as a player, so I'm gonna leave it at this, I don't think he is composed enough in times with immense pressure, it's my opinion so you don't have to agree with it ...

Your reasoning isn't well supported. I've put up a few things that contradict points you've made, but you close your eyes to it. You don't want to have to explain yourself in light of contradicting evidence? Meh.

 

[MightyDons4]

The role you are talking about will be filled by two of: Lamumba, Salem, Grimes, Watts, Toumpas, Vince or Strech. All of which are superior or are comparable in ability/potential to Doc.

Core midfield is: Jones, Tyson, Viney, Petracca, Brayshaw, Trengove, Newton, Mitchie and ANB.

Your trade suggestion is ridiculous. We have plenty of players (both current and future) to fill the suggested HBF role.

None of Stretch, Salem or Toumpas play off a back flank. I'd take Doherty over Watts and Grimes any day, Vince and Lumumba are only quick fixes. It would definitely make sense trading someone like Trengove for a long term decent rebounding HBF.

 

[Demonheart]

None of Stretch, Salem or Toumpas play off a back flank. I'd take Doherty over Watts and Grimes any day, Vince and Lumumba are only quick fixes. It would definitely make sense trading someone like Trengove for a long term decent rebounding HBF.

Not sure if serious.

For starters Stretch is well known to play on the HBF, he did that in the SANFL.

As for the rest, I really can't be bothered

 

[Pomsta]

Docherty's 2014 reminded me of Mitch Golby's 2013. You better hope Docherty doesn't follow the same trajectory.

 

[Asgardian]

Your reasoning isn't well supported. I've put up a few things that contradict points you've made, but you close your eyes to it. You don't want to have to explain yourself in light of contradicting evidence? Meh.

I would not want Port to trade for Docherty

 

[Sublime]

I would not want Port to trade for Docherty

That's lucky because he would not want to go to Port.

 

[Asgardian]

That's lucky because he would not want to go to Port.

Try the Bay if you can't handle it here

 

[12Chill]

I would not want Port to trade for Docherty

Yeah, I think you guys have multiple better options off a half back flank like Jarman Impey and Jasper Pittard.

 

[Asgardian]

Yeah, I think you guys have multiple better options off a half back flank like Jarman Impey and Jasper Pittard.

And especially Matty Broadbent

 

[Defacto]

Gilbo suckers so many in with his thinly veiled trolling. Absolute gold

 

[Andy_Mac]

None of Stretch, Salem or Toumpas play off a back flank. I'd take Doherty over Watts and Grimes any day, Vince and Lumumba are only quick fixes. It would definitely make sense trading someone like Trengove for a long term decent rebounding HBF.

Where do you think Toump and Salem play? It won't be as a core midfielder...