World believes removing Taliban now impossible.

[The Coup]

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/op...onciliation-afghanis-2014111172932156854.html

Interesting article. There was a real chance to remove them there for a while when the Iranians were assisting the Americans but that relationship went pear shaped due to poor diplomacy.

I think certain powers are recognising that in some countries they don't have the level of dominance required to facilitate lasting regime change. Syria would appear to be heading in that direction and Iran is certainly another that I think will avoid being invaded in the short to medium term.

China appear to be playing the role of cleaner. Heading into war torn or fractured countries following Anglo imperialist pursuits, and attempting to rebuild with a view to strengthening their diplomatic and financial position.

 

[little graham]

Angola is an interesting case study. As a result of us supporting apartheid, the saffies did some of our dirty work in Angola. It was the Russians and Cubans who cleaned up the mess, tried to save the people from what we do them. It's what socialism does.

 

[The Coup]

Angola is an interesting case study. As a result of us supporting apartheid, the saffies did some of our dirty work in Angola. It was the Russians and Cubans who cleaned up the mess, tried to save the people from what we do them. It's what socialism does.

Thanks to smokingjacket and his excellent posts in the YPJ thread, it seems like it was a similar thing in Kurdistan? Marginalised people get help from socialists, take on some of their politics because the benefits are so obvious immediately, and gain a measure of independence they'd never be granted from the west. Its good politics on their behalf, we do the same thing though really.

 

[little graham]

T Its good politics on their behalf, we do the same thing though really.

We did the same thing in 72. The west retaliated as it only knows how.

 

[Tas]

I wouldn't say impossible, nothing that carpet bombing nukes wont fix, however, getting rid of them with conventional tactics isn't an option as an 'in & out' operation.

If you invaded with the intent of settling the entire region then it could economically sustain a large conventional military, just having military in the middle of nowhere a long way from home is an expensive nightmare.

 

[MaddAdam]

"The Taliban" haven't existed since 2001.

A Pashtun resistance movement we persist in calling the Taliban has been fighting foreign invaders since. The same Pashtuns that have relentlessly fought invaders for century upon century.

 

[mottrain]

"The Taliban" haven't existed since 2001.

A Pashtun resistance movement we persist in calling the Taliban has been fighting foreign invaders since. The same Pashtuns that have relentlessly fought invaders for century upon century.

Correct.

 

[MaddAdam]

I see the Pakistani Taliban had a cry because their spokesman bailed to join IS.

 

[little graham]

"The Taliban" haven't existed since 2001.

Before that they were doing some really good work with the UN eradicating heroin production, while being progressive with hemp laws and signing pipline treaties with Iran and China. Then a heap of individuals from Saudi Arabia infamously hijacked some planes.

Funny that the Saudis have been causing Iran and Iraq heaps of s**t, the two nations to lose out of those hijackings more than anyone else.

 

[MaddAdam]

Before that they were doing some really good work with the UN eradicating heroin production, while being progressive with hemp laws and signing pipline treaties with Iran and China. Then a heap of individuals from Saudi Arabia infamously hijacked some planes.

Funny that the Saudis have been causing Iran and Iraq heaps of s**t, the two nations to lose out of those hijackings more than anyone else.

LOL, the shut down the opium for a year because there was a glut of gear on the market and price had fallen to low.

They are the OPEC of heroin, not "good guys" in that regard.

 

[MaddAdam]

Funny that the Saudis have been causing Iran and Iraq heaps of s**t, the two nations to lose out of those hijackings more than anyone else.

???

Iran was the biggest winner of the post 9/11 there is.

The Yanks came and destroyed their two enemies for them in the Talibs and Saddam. Then the Yanks "brought democracy" which allowed the Shia majority to take Iraq. And the whole time the Iranian regime could use the "foreign threat" to justify cracking down on restive student elements and run a nuke program.

Iran is the massive winner.

 

[The Coup]

"The Taliban" haven't existed since 2001.

A Pashtun resistance movement we persist in calling the Taliban has been fighting foreign invaders since. The same Pashtuns that have relentlessly fought invaders for century upon century.

Yeah by the Taliban I effectively mean the 60 odd million Pashto people that live on the British drawn border between Afghanistan and Pakistan that has no relevance other than on maps, supported by ISI and huge swatches of the Pakistani military as well as sourcing funding directly from Qatar and Saudi.

i.e. the guys the Persians want to kill the s**t out of more than anything.

 

[blackcat]

LOL, the shut down the opium for a year because there was a glut of gear on the market and price had fallen to low.

They are the OPEC of heroin, not "good guys" in that regard.

wait, we have three individual blocs here. i)current resistance ii)original talib iii)northern alliance

are you asserting that for the subject of this discussion, and poppy crops and exports, you are using one subject, afghani market.

i know you have previously said the opium exports were not the talibs cracking down late90s circa2000/1 before 9/11. But now, there is the diffuse resistance we are getting called taliban in the western media, so their exports are close to/or, capacity now?

i cant understand how these misinformation truths grow momentum or have a life of their own if they just get an article in Wired or Salon or Harpers.
caveatutting most stock in your mail

 

[Present Not Past]

You can kill the people, but you can't kill an idea.
For Gods sake - they've got Nazi's in Illinois.

 

[B4Bear]

Before that they were doing some really good work with the UN eradicating heroin production, while being progressive with hemp laws and signing pipline treaties with Iran and China. Then a heap of individuals from Saudi Arabia infamously hijacked some planes.

Funny that the Saudis have been causing Iran and Iraq heaps of s**t, the two nations to lose out of those hijackings more than anyone else.

I got the following from an Afghanistani I met in Kabul:

The majority of the opimum that was produced in Afghanistan was controlled by the Taliban prior to their attempts at eradicting it as a cash crop.

The price of a 'brick' was worth around $1,000 prior to the eradication. After the eradication came into being the price skyrocketed, and those very same Taliban became instant millionaires.

As soon as ISAF invaded, the remaining Taliban forced the local farmers to start growing it again. This was done by either raping, or threatening to rape, torture or kill the farmers' family.

His belief (and mine for that matter) is that there was never any altruistic motives for their eradication program. It was, as usual, all about the money.

I personally agree with the premis that the Taliban (or Pashtun 'freedom fighters' if you prefer) will not be defeated in Afghanistan. That option was taken off the table when the West diverted the resources from Afghanistan and invaded Iraq for the second time. They were all but dead and buried, the Coalition of the Willing of Bush, Blaire and Howard screwed the pooch; and the rest as they say is history.

 

[little graham]

I personally agree with the premis that the Taliban (or Pashtun 'freedom fighters' if you prefer) will not be defeated in Afghanistan. That option was taken off the table when the West diverted the resources from Afghanistan and invaded Iraq for the second time. They were all but dead and buried, the Coalition of the Willing of Bush, Blaire and Howard screwed the pooch; and the rest as they say is history.

So in 2003 heroin production was again being stifled significantly until a bunch of men from Texas aligned with Saudi Arabian billionaires lied to us about Iraq and invaded. When that lie didn't work, they pulled out the old Al Queda trick again (who were run by a rich Saudi)

I like this game..

 

[B4Bear]

So in 2003 heroin production was again being stifled significantly until a bunch of men from Texas aligned with Saudi Arabian billionaires lied to us about Iraq and invaded. When that lie didn't work, they pulled out the old Al Queda trick again (who were run by a rich Saudi)

I like this game..

By 2006 Australia had virtually zero military presence in Afghanistan. We had moved our attention to Iraq a few years before. The USA troops that remained were unable to stop the resurgence of the Taliban, hence why it spiked again.

Kevin 07 ramped up our commitment as we started withdrawing our forces from Iraq.

If you look at the amount of money spent, a reliable indicator in almost all conflicts, you will find that post Iraq there was very little (in relative terms) spent in Afghanistan by the West, and hundreds of billions in Iraq.

As s**t a president as Obama has been in some areas, getting out of the Iraq quagmire (and yes here we go again) was a good move.

 

[little graham]

By 2006 Australia had virtually zero military presence in Afghanistan. We had moved our attention to Iraq a few years before. The USA troops that remained were unable to stop the resurgence of the Taliban, hence why it spiked again.

Kevin 07 ramped up our commitment as we started withdrawing our forces from Iraq.

If you look at the amount of money spent, a reliable indicator in almost all conflicts, you will find that post Iraq there was very little (in relative terms) spent in Afghanistan by the West, and hundreds of billions in Iraq.

As s**t a president as Obama has been in some areas, getting out of the Iraq quagmire (and yes here we go again) was a good move.

From now, if the military was allowed to handle this without pressure from ecomnic/political quarters, what do you think they'd do?

 

[B4Bear]

From now, if the military was allowed to handle this without pressure from ecomnic/political quarters, what do you think they'd do?

No comment I am afraid as I am in the ADF.

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

"The Taliban" haven't existed since 2001.

A Pashtun resistance movement we persist in calling the Taliban has been fighting foreign invaders since. The same Pashtuns that have relentlessly fought invaders for century upon century.

Even before Akhbar Khan slaughtered the Brits and sepoys in the 19th century

 

[blackcat]

By 2006 Australia had virtually zero military presence in Afghanistan. We had moved our attention to Iraq a few years before. The USA troops that remained were unable to stop the resurgence of the Taliban, hence why it spiked again.

Kevin 07 ramped up our commitment as we started withdrawing our forces from Iraq.

If you look at the amount of money spent, a reliable indicator in almost all conflicts, you will find that post Iraq there was very little (in relative terms) spent in Afghanistan by the West, and hundreds of billions in Iraq.

As s**t a president as Obama has been in some areas, getting out of the Iraq quagmire (and yes here we go again) was a good move.

but werent we always in Oruzgan or however it is spelled not phonetically

 

[B4Bear]

but werent we always in Oruzgan or however it is spelled not phonetically

As I understand it, we started there, left and then returned.

 

[blackcat]

As I understand it, we started there, left and then returned.

ok, cheers. i dont follow deployments, thats maddadams territory

 

[smokingjacket]

Even before Akhbar Khan slaughtered the Brits and sepoys in the 19th century

Fictional and Kipling but the Lost Regiment is a chuckle for British perceptions of Afghan hill tribes in 1893.

The Afghans were always a secretive race, and vastly preferred doing something wicked to saying anything at all. They would be quiet and well-behaved for months, till one night, without word or warning, they would rush a police-post, cut the throats of a constable or two, dash through a village, carry away three or four women, and withdraw, in the red glare of burning thatch, driving the cattle and goats before them to their own desolate hills. The Indian Government would become almost tearful on these occasions. First it would say, 'Please be good and we'll forgive you.' The tribe concerned in the latest depredation would collectively put its thumb to its nose and answer rudely. Then the Government would say: 'Hadn't you better pay up a little money for those few corpses you left behind you the other night?' Here the tribe would temporise, and lie and bully, and some of the younger men, merely to show contempt of authority, would raid another police-post and fire into some frontier mud fort, and, if lucky, kill a real English officer. Then the Government would say: 'Observe; if you really persist in this line of conduct you will be hurt.' If the tribe knew exactly what was going on in India, it would apologise or be rude, according as it learned whether the Government was busy with other things, or able to devote its full attention to their performances. Some of the tribes knew to one corpse how far to go. Others became excited, lost their heads, and told the Government to come on. With sorrow and tears, and one eye on the British taxpayer at home, who insisted on regarding these exercises as brutal wars of annexation, the Government would prepare an expensive little field-brigade and some guns, and send all up into the hills to chase the wicked tribe out of the valleys, where the corn grew, into the hill-tops where there was nothing to eat. The tribe would turn out in full strength and enjoy the campaign, for they knew that their women would never be touched, that their wounded would be nursed, not mutilated, and that as soon as each man's bag of corn was spent they could surrender and palaver with the English General as though they had been a real enemy. Afterwards, years afterwards, they would pay the blood-money, driblet by driblet, to the Government and tell their children how they had slain the redcoats by thousands. The only drawback to this kind of picnic-war was the weakness of the redcoats for solemnly blowing up with powder their fortified towers and keeps. This the tribes always considered mean.

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

How quaint. I like the last stanza of his, "The Young British Soldier

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!