You can't prove it but you still kinda know its true NBA thread...

didaksrightfoot

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The issue isn't that there are no great centres anymore (even though there might not be), isn't the issue that centres is not how you do it anymore.

Which is largely because there are no great centres... Its a circular argument.

Name a current centre/inside PF who is great at both ends of the floor? There hasnt been one since Duncan and Garnett in their primes. Davis will be there very soon, but noone else fits the bill IMO. (maybe DaMarcus if he screws his head on right)

Put a mid 90's Olajuwan/Robinson/Ewing/Shaq in the league now and teams would have to adapt. The only way you could have a small ball 4 is if you had a great defensive C, otherwise you will take too much damage inside.
 
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Am i being paranoid if I equate that to being along the lines of the "Spurs are boring" (were) argument?

Or are you actually complaining about the epidemic of Iso/Hero-ball of the post-Jordan era that teams like the Spurs and Pistons countered so well?

I will agree though that the "run & gun" suns were great to watch, but they were much better defensively than people give them credit for. They were unlucky never to get over the line (but i think thats more up to who they came up against than any actual problems with their style) and D'antoni couldve been viewed differently if they did win a title.
Spurs weren't exactly entertaining at the time for the majority nor were the Pistons. They got results with defence first until Pop altered the way the Spurs played to deal with the different personnel. The 2005 finals won't really go down as ones to remember.

The Lakers didn't save anything, it was the Kings, Mavs and briefly the Bucks who gave the league it's best aesthetic on-court product between 1995 & 2005.

images





The western conference had a ton of perennially strong teams during those years - Spurs, Blazers & Wolves in addition to the Kings and Mavs.

I was talking more about superstars that were getting it done. For the majority of the casuals, they were the team that were luring them to the league, without Shaq and Kobe there wasn't a whole lot else post Jordan that casuals were interested in till LeBron came along.

Yes they did but there was some real awful basketball being played. I know you bring up the West but the East was absolutely horrendous really, and then you've got all those players coming in wanting to be one man teams.

Glad at the current moment the league has swayed far more towards the 2013 Spurs/2002 Kings model rather than the ball dominant superstar crap that always props up.
 
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The issue isn't that there are no great centres anymore (even though there might not be), isn't the issue that centres is not how you do it anymore.
Got high hopes for towns and okafor. Boogie and brow are up there if they ever get team mates

Some of the better/highly paid centres of the last few years in no order

Howard
Jordan
Drummond
Noah
Whiteside
Hibbert
Bogut
Asik
Chandler

Not a single post move between them

The Gasols can, but pau is getting old and can't play both ends anymore.

The likes of Monroe and vuc can score but have no defence whatsoever.

Pek is done.

Horfords one of the better options offensively

Duncan. Still getting it done at age 350. That tells you something about the quality of centre today.... And the quality of player he is
 

EddieWalker

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The Lakers didn't save anything, it was the Kings, Mavs and briefly the Bucks who gave the league it's best aesthetic on-court product between 1995 & 2005.

images





The western conference had a ton of perennially strong teams during those years - Spurs, Blazers & Wolves in addition to the Kings and Mavs.

It's so easy to forget how good, and how fun those Kings were.

It's just a pity they never got the ring to go along with it, to convince the rest of the league that was the way to do it.
 
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I was talking more about superstars that were getting it done. For the majority of the casuals, they were the team that were luring them to the league, without Shaq and Kobe there wasn't a whole lot else post Jordan that casuals were interested in till LeBron came along.

Yes they did but there was some real awful basketball being played. I know you bring up the West but the East was absolutely horrendous really, and then you've got all those players coming in wanting to be one man teams.

The Lakers were a belated continuation of the Jordan era, sadly with a lot of the same pitfalls.

The NBA put so many eggs in the Jordan basket that when he retired the ratings fell off dramatically. The lockout in '99 didn't help matters either, people probably don't appreciate how acrimonious the whole thing was.

On top of that the scoring had fallen to an all-time low - I think the Kings were the only team to average 100 points in that lockout season. A whole host of Jordan's contemporaries - Olajuwon, Drexler, Barkley, Ewing, etc - were also on their last legs and/or on their way out. It was a triple/quadruple whammy.

The Lakers had been earmarked for stardom since '96, but pre-2000 they were more like the Clippers in the way they'd inevitably melt in the playoffs. Eventually they got there (Phil Jackson, plus the hand check rule), but Finals ratings were 40-50% lower than they'd been just a couple of years prior.

That's partly why there's a lot of suspicion around the refs and the league during this era, because the league was hemorrhaging. In Jordan's swansong the Finals rated 18, but by Shaq/Kobe it was rating just 10-12. In the aftermath of the 2002 WCF a lot of people were even more turned off than before - I think the Spurs/Nets '03 Finals rated something like 7, which is an astounding drop off in just five short years.

The league didn't really start to recover until roughly 2008, and even then they had to bury Donaghy in the press to keep up appearnances.
 

Hipster Doofus

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I want the league to come out and say they fixed game 6 of the WCF in 2002, they'll never admit to it but it'd give some closure on the ugliest chapter in NBA history.
It doesn't need to validated but it needs to be recognised, many a casual fan (new fans now) don't even think about it let alone know of it's existence
It's just "Kobe and Shaq" monstered the league for years bruh". Being told to get over it doesn't help either when it's all you've got and as close as you've come.
 

Richo83

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Westbrook is highly overrated. He's incredibly hungry and often has poor game IQ.

The warriors would succeed in any era, they move the ball around well and they know the power of the 3 pointer. It's not a fluke, it's just the league knowing how to use 3 pointers properly.

Philly will eventually realise that their endless rebuilding wont work because it means their players simply rot in a losing culture and will be replaced by more number one picks. Eventually you got to start playing basketball.

Rose didn't deserve his MVP.

The isolation ball era was boring and the modern passing era is far more enjoyable to watch. Guys like Jordan passed the ball, they didn't hog it.

Harden is a stats padder who doesn't actually win games for teams. His defence is terrible and if his shot goes, he's pretty much useless.

Cleveland should have kept Wiggins.
 

Atlanta_Cats

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Kobe bryant is an efficient basketball player in 2015

Sam Hinkie has been sent on to this earth by Satan to destroy all of our lives
 
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Oct 8, 2009
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I want the league to come out and say they fixed game 6 of the WCF in 2002, they'll never admit to it but it'd give some closure on the ugliest chapter in NBA history.
It doesn't need to validated but it needs to be recognised, many a casual fan (new fans now) don't even think about it let alone know of it's existence
It's just "Kobe and Shaq" monstered the league for years bruh". Being told to get over it doesn't help either when it's all you've got and as close as you've come.
It was s**t reffing and a combination of Shaq being such a difficult player to officiate on both ends of the court. You're never going to convince me that there was a fix. It's almost like a myth that has only grown over time with Youtube compilations and Donaghy's musings.

Shaq and Kobe were monstering the league and then self-imploded due to bitterness towards each other.

I don't get why you wouldn't have moved past it either. The Celtics copped some pretty shoddy officiating in game 7 of the 2010 finals but I've moved on.

The Kings I'm sure had chances to make plays throughout that series and didn't.

I know you'll come back at me with the predictable post involving the greatest tragedy in sport, but you're never going to convince me. I'll only ever accept that game/series was rigged if I see blatant evidence.
 
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It was s**t reffing and a combination of Shaq being such a difficult player to officiate on both ends of the court.

It went beyond s**t reffing, it was a freak show. Barely any of the terrible calls had anything to do with Shaq being difficult to officiate, and there was no 'hack a Shaq' whatsoever.

You're never going to convince me that there was a fix. It's almost like a myth that has only grown over time with Youtube compilations and Donaghy's musings.

When NBC (No Blown Calls) announcers deplore what is happening on air and the wider media actually write about the possibility after the game, you know what happened goes beyond a bad day at the office.

Shaq and Kobe were monstering the league and then self-imploded due to bitterness towards each other.

Speaking of myths, this is a myth. The Lakers reached their zenith during the 2001 WCF against the Spurs, but they were not dominant at all during the 2000 playoffs. Their 2002 squad was also weaker than their two previous incarnations.

I don't get why you wouldn't have moved past it either. The Celtics copped some pretty shoddy officiating in game 7 of the 2010 finals but I've moved on.

Possibly because you got to see a championship in 2008?

The Kings I'm sure had chances to make plays throughout that series and didn't.

Nope, they made the plays that they had to within six games. When the Lakers had one quarter to save their season in Game 6, they went nearly seven minutes without hitting a shot from the field - that's hardly getting things done.

I know you'll come back at me with the predictable post involving the greatest tragedy in sport, but you're never going to convince me. I'll only ever accept that game/series was rigged if I see blatant evidence.

What kind of 'evidence' are you hoping to see?

The footage is there for all to see. The unfiltered media reaction is still there to be read and heard.

The FBI have gone on record verifying that they believe Donaghy is telling the truth. They can't act on the information because it's not actually illegal for a league to fix its own games for non-gambling purposes, which should give you pause for thought in itself.

Dick Bavetta's suspicious record in important games still stands out like a giant neon warning sign, and has never once been examined let alone disproved in the media. He's in the Hall of Fame now, because of course.

Donaghy's claim is that Bavetta (and Bob Delaney) were company men who could be relied upon to act in the league's interest. Stern's story is that the Game 6 crew had a poor officiating day, partly because Bavetta and Delaney didn't get along and subsequently almost never worked together. What is seldom ever mentioned is that the league had these same three guys referee a Finals game, together (again), just one week later. Does that sound like something you would do if you were unhappy with the officiating or had concerns about their working relationship?

He's not the only referee who has been given a free ride either - why has nobody followed up on Scott Foster's frequent late-night calls with Donaghy during the period when Donaghy was betting on games? How is he still a referee?
 

Hipster Doofus

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It was s**t reffing and a combination of Shaq being such a difficult player to officiate on both ends of the court. You're never going to convince me that there was a fix. It's almost like a myth that has only grown over time with Youtube compilations and Donaghy's musings.

Shaq and Kobe were monstering the league and then self-imploded due to bitterness towards each other.

I don't get why you wouldn't have moved past it either. The Celtics copped some pretty shoddy officiating in game 7 of the 2010 finals but I've moved on.

The Kings I'm sure had chances to make plays throughout that series and didn't.

I know you'll come back at me with the predictable post involving the greatest tragedy in sport, but you're never going to convince me. I'll only ever accept that game/series was rigged if I see blatant evidence.
If you want to narrow it down to blatant evidence then how can you sit there and watch the footage and tell me that Divacs, Webber and especially Scot Pollard were officiated fairly? Or how does Kobe get the call and free throws when he leaves Bibby bloodied and on the floor as play resumes? Webber's clear as daylight block on Kobe in the 4th of game 6 that gets called and leads to the commentators remarking that "something isn't right"?
It wasn't a one off shocker, it was several consecutively that constantly put them out of the game all for going arms straight up on Shaq who when he had the ball was barely backing them down to the hoop; he was opting for jump hooks.
And I haven't moved on because that's as close and as deserving as a team can get and it got ripped away for disgusting reasons, Webber's blown knee a year later was as close as Sacramento has ever come to that and it's been a struggle to stay competitive let alone relevant thanks to equally shitty management under the Malloofs.
 

EddieWalker

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If you want to narrow it down to blatant evidence then how can you sit there and watch the footage and tell me that Divacs, Webber and especially Scot Pollard were officiated fairly? Or how does Kobe get the call and free throws when he leaves Bibby bloodied and on the floor as play resumes? Webber's clear as daylight block on Kobe in the 4th of game 6 that gets called and leads to the commentators remarking that "something isn't right"?
It wasn't a one off shocker, it was several consecutively that constantly put them out of the game all for going arms straight up on Shaq who when he had the ball was barely backing them down to the hoop; he was opting for jump hooks.
And I haven't moved on because that's as close and as deserving as a team can get and it got ripped away for disgusting reasons, Webber's blown knee a year later was as close as Sacramento has ever come to that and it's been a struggle to stay competitive let alone relevant thanks to equally shitty management under the Malloofs.

I'm going to have to go back and watch this game now. As a Dubs fan, I loved Chris Webber and when he came into the league I though he was going to be the one to build a championship team around. I was shattered with the way it ended, and always kept a close eye on him after that. I really hoped the Kings would win the title, 1- because you played great basketball & 2- it would have given Webber redemption after the NCAA timeout debacle. Unfortunately it wasn't to be, I still have a slight soft spot for the Kings despite their ongoing basket case nature now.
 
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I'm going to have to go back and watch this game now. As a Dubs fan, I loved Chris Webber and when he came into the league I though he was going to be the one to build a championship team around. I was shattered with the way it ended, and always kept a close eye on him after that. I really hoped the Kings would win the title, 1- because you played great basketball & 2- it would have given Webber redemption after the NCAA timeout debacle. Unfortunately it wasn't to be, I still have a slight soft spot for the Kings despite their ongoing basket case nature now.

Well heres the last quarter



Immediately, 2 iffy calls on Pollard.

Next 3 minutes of play, not much

Then an iffy call on Vlade, solid walk
 
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Nothing just think it was a harder league then

Warriors are lucky there are a lack of decent centres league wide
Yep was a harder league when the league was massively watered down by expansion. Warriors are an all time team whether they play small or big.
 
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