How good are these horses?

[Mordecai]

Hi guys,

I have only really been following the horses for a short while (maybe a year). I'll just quickly note that the posters this Spring have been great; when last I was here it was all DJ Ryan... Anyway, I've come to know a lot of the horses but with some many races it's hard to know how good one horse is in isolation. I've got a list of horses I'd like you to rank. Might be a few unusual selections with some old and some new names, I don't know, but here they are:

Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, Royal Asscher, Wonderful World, Apache Cat, Northern Meteor, Weekend Hussler, Miss Finland, Samantha Miss, Forensics, Haradasun, Gold Edition, El Segundo.

I'm sure I've missed some I'd like to know how good they are... Some of them I know nothing about and just want a little info on how big they are in history. May add some later. Also, how do our horses rate when compared to other areas of the world? Are they amongst the best?

Thanks.

Edit: Looking back this is a nearly impossible task with so many variables. I appreciate the attempts.

 

[year of the cat]

Don't mention Royal Asscher in the same breath as the others.

 

[Colin D'Cops]

Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, Royal Asscher, Wonderful World, Apache Cat, Northern Meteor, Weekend Hussler, Miss Finland, Samantha Miss, Forensics, Haradasun, Gold Edition, El Segundo.

Hmm. So very tough, so many good horses there. I'll give it a go anyway.

Miss Andretti
Takeover Target
Haradasun
El Segundo
Apache Cat
Miss Finland
Weekend Hussler
Samantha Miss
Gold Edition
Forensics
Royal Asscher
Northern Meteor (Only had a few starts. Could move up this list quite quickly.)

 

[BuddysBiggestFan]

Takeover Target
Miss Andretti
Gold Edition
Apache Cat
Miss Finland
Weekend Hussler
El Segundo
Haradasun
Samantha Miss
Wonderful World
Forensics
Northern Meteor
Royal Asscher

 

[Mordecai]

Don't mention Royal Asscher in the same breath as the others.

My memory was a bit stretched there. I seem to remember it doing ok against the Hussler at one time... must have been a spot filler til there was some real competition.

Thanks for the lists. I knew Miss Andretti was good but I didn't know Takeover Target was right up there with her.

 

[Colin D'Cops]

Also, how do our horses rate when compared to other areas of the world? Are they amongst the best?

The reason why I had Miss Andretti, Takeover Target & Haradasun at the top of the list is because of exactly that, they have won races overseas which means they can certainly mix it with the best of them.

 

[the_fresh]

The reason why I had Miss Andretti, Takeover Target & Haradasun at the top of the list is because of exactly that, they have won races overseas which means they can certainly mix it with the best of them.

and IIRC she broke the royal ascot track record.
at her best she was up there with the best 1000-1200 horses I've seen.

 

[Mordecai]

Not wanting to derail my own thread, but what are, say your top 10 the_fresh?

 

[Ron]

Hmm. So very tough, so many good horses there. I'll give it a go anyway.

Miss Andretti
Takeover Target
Haradasun
El Segundo
Apache Cat
Miss Finland
Weekend Hussler
Samantha Miss
Gold Edition
Forensics
Royal Asscher
Northern Meteor (Only had a few starts. Could move up this list quite quickly.)

Haradasun third?

haha, give me a break. Wouldn't win a class six at Pakenham unless it had help. Most overrated horse ever.

 

[Danger Mouse]

You rate horses by WHO they have beaten, boy i have learned this the hard way in harness racing and heart, that little something when things don't go right, they can lift themselves off the canvas and still win. Remember when Lohnro for example almost fell yet still won the Australian Cup? Kingston Town can't win... What about Northerly in the Feehan Stakes when Sunline booted 4 in front round the bend and he was under the whip going backwards.... yet he rallied and kicked her arse!

Anyone remember a tiny horse by the name of "Adam" who raced back in NSW in the nineties.... How many times was that horse headed yet he'd find enourmous amounts of reserves to fight back and win.

I'm a pessimist when it comes to gallops these days cos the horses are just so weak. Need the right distance, need the perfect ride, they the perfect everything to win. Where's the heart?

Looking at "All The Good" in the Caulfield Cup... it reminds me of the horses of just a few years ago, sits wide, does it the hard way, just kept finding the line while every other runner needed to be babied to run a drum.... Barbaricus is coming along those lines, his finishing sprint is questionable but you can't deny he tries his heart out and he can do what nearly every other horse can't and thats bust his arse ridden upside down and still be there fighting it out.

Another of my favouroutes, "Spinning Hill", seriously underrated horse from 5 years ago. She'd come from last repeatedly against the best horses and finish like a whirlwind!

So to your list

Takeover Target

Daylight

The rest of them

with Miss Finland, Haradasun, Samantha Miss, Northern Meteor and Royal Asscher at the bottom.

and with a special mention to Forensics who only races against her own sex but she does something rarely seen in recent times. Comes from impossible positions to mow down "quality" opposition, not provincial crap like many other boom horses get.

 

[the_fresh]

Not wanting to derail my own thread, but what are, say your top 10 the_fresh?

My top 10 that I saw.

Might and Power - he did what most couldn't, he broke track records in WFA & handicaps, leading, he's still only the second horse to win the 3 big ones, he won the BMW by 10, the Caulfield Cup by 7, the Cox Plate in a time that they can't get within 2 seconds of.

Northerly - everyone talks about Sunline as this great champion, he beat her 3 times, on her terms & easily. He won a Caulfield Cup, backed up a week later and won a Cox Plate, he beat one of the worlds top horses (not Sunline), he beat FOO who was the most under-rated horses of our time.

Makybe Diva - only 5 horses have won 2 Melbourne Cups, she won 3. She placed in a Caulfield Cup, won a Cox Plate, beat Sydneys best WFA horse in their best WFA race, coming from last and 3 lengths off him at the 100 to wn by 3 going away. She wn the Australian cup in record time. Only down side was she failed in Japan and badly.

Sunline

Miss Andretti - for pure speed no horse since I've been following racing could match the miss from WA. at one stage there she had 3 starts in a prep for 3 track records, Moonee Valley, Caulfield and Royal Ascot. At one stage she was unbeatable over 1000-1200, she beat a host of world class sprinters ic Target Takeover, Gold Edition and eruo's best.

Saintly
Octy
Lonhro
Takeover Target
Starcraft
FOO

 

[SaintsSupporter]

Haradasun third?

haha, give me a break. Wouldn't win a class six at Pakenham unless it had help. Most overrated horse ever.

You're useless.

 

[Colin D'Cops]

Haradasun third?

Yep, you better believe it.

Won a nice race overseas and that counts for alot IMO. No matter how dodgy people thought it was, a win overseas earns a tonne of respect. Well from me anyway.

 

[SaintsSupporter]

Yep, you better believe it.

Won a nice race overseas and that counts for alot IMO. No matter how dodgy people thought it was, a win overseas earns a tonne of respect. Well from me anyway.

I agree, and on top of that he:

- Won a Doncaster at 3.
- Won a George Ryder at 3.
- Ran 2nd in a Queen Elizabeth, beaten by a horse who was at the best he's ever been - nobody could have beaten it that day. Desert War of course.
- Ran 3rd in a Cox Plate when ridden completely upside down (led).

Besides his Mackinnon flop, he was a super consistent horse.

 

[carltonblue]

Did Haradsun go to Launceston? Or was it Auckland?
Haha just tricking mate.

 

[Ron]

Yep, you better believe it.

Won a nice race overseas and that counts for alot IMO. No matter how dodgy people thought it was, a win overseas earns a tonne of respect. Well from me anyway.

The way that race was run, Railings would have won that race, it was disgraceful. The horse had nothing to do with it, anything would have won that.

Yeah he was consistent at running a place, but so was Aqua D'Amore.
To have Haradasun above some of those other horses is a joke. No chance is he above El Segundo, Miss Finland and Weekend Hussler. Not even close.

 

[Ricketts]

Takeover Target -------------- legend
Miss Andretti --------------- international winners TT > MA

El Segundo ------------------- cox plate winner

Apache Cat ------------------ 5 g1's in a row don't match 1 cox plate imo
Gold Edition ------------------ second string sprinter compared to the others

Haradasun ------------------ Doncaster > Any G1 the Hussler won
Weekend Hussler -------------- Guineas only win of note to date

Forensics -------------------- slipper + multiple winner, pick of the mares
Miss Finland ---------------- slipper + oaks, below Forensics as Forensics has gone on with it
Sam Miss ----------------- below MF for the time being, doesnt have to do much more from here to overtake MF

Wonderful World ----------------- good horse, Guineas/Toorak (?) Cox placing
Northern Meteor ------------------- on the up

Royal Ascher ---------------------- no where near

 

[THEBLOODS85]

You rate horses by WHO they have beaten, boy i have learned this the hard way in harness racing and heart, that little something when things don't go right, they can lift themselves off the canvas and still win. Remember when Lohnro for example almost fell yet still won the Australian Cup? Kingston Town can't win... What about Northerly in the Feehan Stakes when Sunline booted 4 in front round the bend and he was under the whip going backwards.... yet he rallied and kicked her arse!

Anyone remember a tiny horse by the name of "Adam" who raced back in NSW in the nineties.... How many times was that horse headed yet he'd find enourmous amounts of reserves to fight back and win.

I'm a pessimist when it comes to gallops these days cos the horses are just so weak. Need the right distance, need the perfect ride, they the perfect everything to win. Where's the heart?

Looking at "All The Good" in the Caulfield Cup... it reminds me of the horses of just a few years ago, sits wide, does it the hard way, just kept finding the line while every other runner needed to be babied to run a drum.... Barbaricus is coming along those lines, his finishing sprint is questionable but you can't deny he tries his heart out and he can do what nearly every other horse can't and thats bust his arse ridden upside down and still be there fighting it out.

Another of my favouroutes, "Spinning Hill", seriously underrated horse from 5 years ago. She'd come from last repeatedly against the best horses and finish like a whirlwind!

So to your list

Takeover Target

Daylight

The rest of them

with Miss Finland, Haradasun, Samantha Miss, Northern Meteor and Royal Asscher at the bottom.

and with a special mention to Forensics who only races against her own sex but she does something rarely seen in recent times. Comes from impossible positions to mow down "quality" opposition, not provincial crap like many other boom horses get.

Stick to your Harness Mouse!

 

[Mordecai]

Bump.

Any revisions?

I'm interested in thoughts on where people rate Whobegotyou, So You Think and Black Caviar amongst these horses.

(I'm still aware this is an impossible task but am interested in opinion anyway)

 

[carltonblue]

So You Think
Black Caviar
Takeover Target
El Segundo
Whobegotyou
Gold Edition
Apache Cat
Miss Andretti
Haradasun
Sam MIss
Miss Finland
Forensics
Weekend Hussler
Wonderful World
Northern Meteor
Royal Ascher

 

[sethlad]

Anyone who has Miss Finland above Weekend Hussler needs to rewatch the dvd

Champion 3yo filly who couldnt win an open G1 v a multiple Gp 1 winner
How quickly we forget how good he was

seth

 

[Rough_Edges]

I'd have the Cat and Miss Andretti above WHBY thats for sure.

 

[carltonblue]

How many horses that have ran a placing in the Blue Diamond then won the Golden Slipper? How many 2yos that raced before the Autumn have went onto anything decent as a 4yo+?

Hardly just a 3yo. She won the Slipper and placed 2nd in 2other Gp1s as a 2yo. Then 4yo+ she was a total 15Lengths of winning 6Gp1s with multiple placings.

We have had an abundance of good Sprinters/Milers but not many Middle Distance Mares which shows its harder to do.

In fact thinking about it they both should be more up the list. But they are all so good which is why its a stupid task comparing.

 

[ThePezDispenser]

Haradasun third?

haha, give me a break. Wouldn't win a class six at Pakenham unless it had help. Most overrated horse ever.

Seconded!

 

[sethlad]

How many horses that have ran a placing in the Blue Diamond then won the Golden Slipper? How many 2yos that raced before the Autumn have went onto anything decent as a 4yo+?
Hardly just a 3yo. She won the Slipper and placed 2nd in 2other Gp1s as a 2yo. Then 4yo+ she was a total 15Lengths of winning 6Gp1s with multiple placings.
We have had an abundance of good Sprinters/Milers but not many Middle Distance Mares which shows its harder to do.
In fact thinking about it they both should be more up the list. But they are all so good which is why its a stupid task comparing.

Can only compare on winning records,theres no doubt she was a champion younger horse,but thats where it ended.
When she was no longer beating up her own age,she battled at 4,winning a Gp 2 & getting consistently belted at WFA by horses like Sirmione???

WH won 7 Group 1's.........1100 to 1800m & 2 Gp 2's

Agree that comparison of horses is pointless but these 2 arent even in the same barn.

seth