Next years bolter

[SirJimi05]

Yeah but they bottomed out and still didnt get the spoon. They cant really get worse and some players are coming back this year(Palmer, Crowley)

I'm not saying they will win the spoon. I'm saying people that think they might are not fools, as you suggest.

We didn't have that great a run with injury in 08 for a fair bit of the minor round we just got everybody good at the right time.

I think i've heard it all now...not only do Hawks supporters massively overrate how bad their injuries were in 2009, now apparently they didn't have a great run with injuries in 2008.

How many games did your best 10 players play for the year?

(sigh)

maybe...it's because...injuries WERE our main problem?

Nah...you just didn't handle injuries as well as other teams.

 

[eldorado]

Nah...you just didn't handle injuries as well as other teams.

yeah, naah, yeah, whatever, trollboy.

This has been done to death; it's obvious that you are only here for the baiting, so we'll leave it.

 

[SirJimi05]

yeah, naah, yeah, whatever, trollboy.

This has been done to death; it's obvious that you are only here for the baiting, so we'll leave it.

Ah..the old "if someone doesn't agree with my opinion he must be trolling" line.

I didn't bring anything up about Hawthorns injuires in this thread, i have simply replied to posts.

Just because not everyone agrees that your injuries were so shocjing that they destroyed your season doesn't mean they are trolling.

Even a Hawks supporter has said that injuires were not the major reason for you being so bad this year.

But hey...if it comforts you to hide behind this excuse than good luck to you.

 

[eldorado]

Ah..the old "if someone doesn't agree with my opinion he must be trolling" line.

I didn't bring anything up about Hawthorns injuires in this thread, i have simply replied to posts.

Just because not everyone agrees that your injuries were so shocjing that they destroyed your season doesn't mean they are trolling.

Even a Hawks supporter has said that injuires were not the major reason for you being so bad this year.

But hey...if it comforts you to hide behind this excuse than good luck to you.

Ignoring all evidence to push an agenda is trolling.

Mountains of evidence about Hawthorn's injuries, even grudgingly accepted by other supporters' fans, but not by you. You are shown that Hawthorn had the MOST players lost of any team, and you insist it is not a factor.

If it was any other team apart from Hawthorn, you would admit that that team would suffer.

But as it is hawthorn, you instead insist on dismissing it.

Which makes you a troll, not a rationale partner in discussion.

 

[SirJimi05]

Ignoring all evidence to push an agenda is trolling.

Mountains of evidence about Hawthorn's injuries, even grudgingly accepted by other supporters' fans, but not by you. You are shown that Hawthorn had the MOST players lost of any team, and you insist it is not a factor.

If it was any other team apart from Hawthorn, you would admit that that team would suffer.

But as it is hawthorn, you instead insist on dismissing it.

Which makes you a troll, not a rationale partner in discussion.

I haven't ignored anything. What are you talking about? The guy (Galon i think) that posted quotes from the other thread, conveniently left out all of my replies to these posts.

On the flipside i have posted plenty of evidence such as actual games played...then again i know it suits your own agenda to believe the guys that were saying that your best 18 players played every single game injured this season, as opposed to looking at actual facts.

Bolded part - I was shown that Hawthorn players missed the most weeks of any team - two completely different things and i believe my whole arguement was based around this so the evidence was nothing new to me. Even if they did have the most players injured it all comes down to the quality of the player and this is something that all of you dismiss.

Also, when did i insist your injuries were not a factor? Once again jumping to assumptions. Try reading posts, mate.

 

[Trjn]

Hawthorn had injury worries, but so did the Lions and the Lions managed to make the eight.

If you want to pretend that your injuries were worse, remember that Mitch Clark was our third ruckman and spent most of the season being backed up by Brennan, Merrett and Notting. Then there are the games where our best defenders weren't available, and the multiple games where a player was injured early on, so we spent 3 quarters with a reduced bench.

So sure, complain about your injuries, but don't pretend it was the only factor because if we could cope, you should have been able to.

 

[SirJimi05]

Hawthorn had injury worries, but so did the Lions and the Lions managed to make the eight.

If you want to pretend that your injuries were worse, remember that Mitch Clark was our third ruckman and spent most of the season being backed up by Brennan, Merrett and Notting. Then there are the games where our best defenders weren't available, and the multiple games where a player was injured early on, so we spent 3 quarters with a reduced bench.

So sure, complain about your injuries, but don't pretend it was the only factor because if we could cope, you should have been able to.

Ditto Essendon and about a half a dozen other teams.

This has been my whole point all along and i have stressed it many times but it keeps getting dismissed and i get accused of trolling.

If you don't agree that the Hawks had the worst injury run by a mile and their whole season was destroyed by injuries, you are a troll.

I would absolutely love for someone to spend the time to comprise a list of all clubs which shows total games played byt each player because then we could really see how bad their injuries were.

The prefer to rest on the "but our players missed the most weeks" instead of factoring in the quality of player injured and things like that.

 

[SA HAWK]

I think i've heard it all now...not only do Hawks supporters massively overrate how bad their injuries were in 2009, now apparently they didn't have a great run with injuries in 2008.

It wasn't the dream run you are suggesting. It wasn't a terrible run just not a great one especailly mid season.

Certainly not anywhere near as good a run as St Kilda had last year.

Amongst our first 22 players the following missed games :
Hodge - 5 games
Bateman - 4 games
Crawford - 11 games
Dew - 10 games
Croad - 5 games
Guerra - 4 games
Lewis - 5 games
Sewell - 4 games
Williams - 3 games
Young - 5 games

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

True, Hawthorn had a bad run with injuries in 09. But they still dramatically under-performed. It is very unusual for a premier to miss the finals the following year and pick up just the 9 wins. Sure, the Hawks best 22 is very good, but clearly there is not a great deal of depth there. At least that is how it would appear given what we witnessed in 09.

Injuries aren't the be all and end all. Keep in mind that the Saints beat your lads in Tasmania with an incredible 8 of its best 22 absent. Geelong lost just 4 games for the season and won a premiership, yet it had enough injuries throughout the year to use almost as many players from its list as Hawthorn did.

I agree we didn't see the best of the Hawks due to injury. But i also believe their very ordinary season was also the result of other factors - form slump, possibly an underdone pre-season (a fair few second half fade outs, i noticed), and a game plan that other teams have worked out.

Fact is HAW had a really disappointing season. This was well summed up in Rd 22, when your president and coach had a complete public dummy spit during and after the game, and one player (Brown?) behaved like a complete w***er on and off the field. Why not accept it as a failed year, and address foreseeable problems. Rather than hiding behind injuries?

A couple of points in response.
A) Our depth players had a number of injury concerns themselves. Boyle, Tuck, Moss, Thorp, Suckling, Whitecross to name a few.
Also... take into account the age of our list in comparison to Geelong and who comes in for an experienced player.
Listed Players 'In their Prime' (Between 24 and 29 Years - Born Between 31-12-1980 and 31-12-1985)

1. Geelong - 36.36%
2. Brisbane - 35.00%
3. Fremantle - 32.56%
4. St Kilda - 32.56%
5. Western Bulldogs - 30.00%
6. Collingwood - 28.89%
7. Sydney - 28.57%
8. Port Adelaide - 27.91%
9. Essendon - 27.50%
10. Carlton - 26.19%
11. Hawthorn - 26.09%
12. North Melbourne - 25.00%
13. West Coast - 23.81%
14. Melbourne - 23.26%
15. Adelaide - 22.73%
16. Richmond - 15.38%

Listed Players 'Yet to Reach Their Prime' ('Under 24s' - Born After 31-12-1985)

1. Richmond - 79.49%
2. West Coast - 73.81%
3. North Melbourne - 72.73%
4. Melbourne - 72.09%
5. Hawthorn - 71.74%
6. Essendon - 70.00%
7. Carlton - 69.05%
8. Collingwood - 64.44%
9. Adelaide - 63.64%
10. Port Adelaide - 62.79%
11. Sydney - 61.90%
12. Fremantle - 58.14%
13. Brisbane - 57.50%
14. Western Bulldogs - 57.50%
15. St Kilda - 55.81%
16. Geelong - 52.27%

As you can see, out depth is in talent due to having such a young list, not in exposed experience, so with players like Boyle, Moss, Tuck etc who have a few games under their belt unable to fill the void, we have to start play guys before their time.

B) I put our loss to St Kilda down to poor form, and the continuing amount of players we had coming into and out of the team on a day when we probably thought that we could just switch it on and take the points.

C)If you are to suggest that injuries did play a part in our poor output, then it's also worth noting that this will indeed affect the efficiency at which our gameplan can be implemented.
It's like having a car with a 'missing'(not physically) engine and then complaining of how it's running.

 

[SirJimi05]

It wasn't the dream run you are suggesting. It wasn't a terrible run just not a great one especailly mid season.

Certainly not anywhere near as good a run as St Kilda had last year.

Amongst our first 22 players the following missed games :
Hodge - 5 games
Bateman - 4 games
Crawford - 11 games
Dew - 10 games
Croad - 5 games
Guerra - 4 games
Lewis - 5 games
Sewell - 4 games
Williams - 3 games
Young - 5 games

Amongst your best 22? What is that? Just a way of selecting the players you want? I specifically said best 10 players. I'm not sure who your best 10 are but i will take a stab at it:

Franklin - 0 games missed
Roughead - 0
Mitchell - 1
Sewell - 4
Ladson - 0
Lewis - 5
Rioli - 0
Croad - 5
Brown - 1
Bateman -5

A total of 16 games missed by your best 10 players. An average of 1.6 games missed for all your best players, with no serious injuries, is a great result in my opinion.

Compared to this season your best players missed on average 2-3 for the season as opposed to 1-2 and you had a couple of serious injuries. Many other clubs suffered similiar type scenerios this season but had decent enough depth which enabled them to play good footy.

 

[AG]

I would have thought Freo would be way lower on the top list.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Amongst your best 22? What is that? Just a way of selecting the players you want? I specifically said best 10 players. I'm not sure who your best 10 are but i will take a stab at it:

Franklin - 0 games missed
Roughead - 0
Mitchell - 1
Sewell - 4
Ladson - 0
Lewis - 5
Rioli - 0
Croad - 5
Brown - 1
Bateman -5

A total of 16 games missed by your best 10 players. An average of 1.6 games missed for all your best players, with no serious injuries, is a great result in my opinion.

Compared to this season your best players missed on average 2-3 for the season as opposed to 1-2 and you had a couple of serious injuries. Many other clubs suffered similiar type scenerios this season but had decent enough depth which enabled them to play good footy.

Either you forgot about Hodge and Crawford or you really are just trolling if you don't think they were in our best 10 players in 2008.
Interestingly, you've listed Rioli in his first year and Ladson who only weeks ago you were suggesting wasn't a great loss in 2009 anyway.

Actually, I see exactly why you left Hodge and Crawford out. It certainly helps your 'averages', doesn't it.

 

[Thumpy]

Adelaide yeh I wish. Next years bolter will be the Weagles. The Hawks should also return to their 2008 flag winning form.

 

[Falchoon]

Hawthorns injuries were due to a lack of professionalism over the summer months, to use them as a crutch is laughable

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Hawthorns injuries were due to a lack of professionalism over the summer months, to use them as a crutch is laughable

Sure they were.

 

[Saigan]

I think the Eagles will be the big mover, with Carlton the big slider and the Hawks will stay the same as last year, maybe, maybe not make the 8

 

[Falchoon]

Sure they were.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/rfnews/croad-to-have-surgery-as-hawks-all-but-give-up-on-title-defence/2009/08/03/1249152558484.html

"Hawthorn’s struggle this year has been blamed on several factors including a lack of intensity, injury woes and its undermanned and often patchy defence, but the club acknowledges it could have handled its post-grand final player management better with several players delaying surgery and missing significant chunks of the pre-season."


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[SA HAWK]

Amongst your best 22? What is that? Just a way of selecting the players you want? I specifically said best 10 players. I'm not sure who your best 10 are but i will take a stab at it:

Franklin - 0 games missed
Roughead - 0
Mitchell - 1
Sewell - 4
Ladson - 0
Lewis - 5
Rioli - 0
Croad - 5
Brown - 1
Bateman -5

A total of 16 games missed by your best 10 players. An average of 1.6 games missed for all your best players, with no serious injuries, is a great result in my opinion. .

No way were Ladson & Brown considered to be in our best 10 players in 08. I am pretty sure Hodge & Crawford would have been though.

As for the others i mentioned Dew almost single handedly won us the gf and young would have been pretty close to bog at half time. Ironically both of those players missed the majority of last season and it really showed how much we missed them. Williams was also considered a top 10 player at our club in 08.

 

[SirJimi05]

Either you forgot about Hodge and Crawford or you really are just trolling if you don't think they were in our best 10 players in 2008.
Interestingly, you've listed Rioli in his first year and Ladson who only weeks ago you were suggesting wasn't a great loss in 2009 anyway.

Actually, I see exactly why you left Hodge and Crawford out. It certainly helps your 'averages', doesn't it.

My mistake for overlooking Hodge. Of course he is in your best 10 players. He was the first player that came to mind but totally forgot him when i typed the list after looking at games missed. You study my posts very carefully so you should know that i have listed him in your 'injuries to best players' numerous times.

How is Crawford one of your best players in 2008? In another thread Hawks supporters were saying he was well past his best (in fact years past his best) and was nothing more than a cameo type player in 2008. I guess you just say whatever is best for whichever particular argument at the time, right?

Oh, and are you blatantly lying or just not reading my posts? I specifically stated that Croad and Ladson were you two major losses this season.

No way were Ladson & Brown considered to be in our best 10 players in 08. I am pretty sure Hodge & Crawford would have been though.

According to Hawks supporters Crawford is a no. Hodge in for Ladson. Still a great run with injuries.

 

[SA HAWK]

According to Hawks supporters Crawford is a no. Hodge in for Ladson. Still a great run with injuries.

We will agree to disagree then.

Not a bad run but not a dream run in my books. Not like St Kilda last year.

 

[SirJimi05]

We will agree to disagree then.

Not a bad run but not a dream run in my books. Not like St Kilda last year.

Huh? Iv'e never stated it was a dream run or as good as St Kilda's.

The word i used was great. Any club would take that sort of run with injuries in every single season if given the chance.

I would give my left nut to have Essedons best 10 players miss on average about 1.6 games.

 

[Falchoon]

We will agree to disagree then.

Not a bad run but not a dream run in my books. Not like St Kilda last year.

the Saints turned up for pre season hungry and ready.

 

[SirJimi05]

the Saints turned up for pre season hungry and ready.

I suggested that hunger and lack of dedication was the major contributor to their poor season this year but was well and truely cut down by the mob.

It was injuries!

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/rfnew...n-title-defence/2009/08/03/1249152558484.html

"Hawthorn’s struggle this year has been blamed on several factors including a lack of intensity, injury woes and its undermanned and often patchy defence, but the club acknowledges it could have handled its post-grand final player management better with several players delaying surgery and missing significant chunks of the pre-season."


Next

A Caroline Wilson article with no quote from anybody associated with the HFC??

What awesome proof that our injury concerns were 'due to a lack of professionalism over the summer months'.

Our preseason could've been handled better, no doubt in my mind, but that's more to do with hindsight than unprofessionalism.

 

[SA HAWK]

I suggested that hunger and lack of dedication was the major contributor to their poor season this year but was well and truely cut down by the mob.

It was injuries!

It was a mixture of injuries, lack of hunger, lack of fitness, poor preseason, lack of depth & poor form imo.

To blame it solely on injuries is naive but it was certainly a considerable factor.

Croad & Gilham were the biggest losses imo we had no replacement for either and the defence crumbled without them.