The Law Privately Owned Prisons

[medusala]

/\
strawman!

It is a logical extension of the same argument. Are you aware of Dr Shipman?

There is no logical reason to think the state can run a prison better than private owners. Further if a private operator is no good then their contract can be revoked/not renewed. This is what happens with the train operators.

The public sector is an horrendously expensive joke in the UK. It is not hard to see why this has happened (though ppp's are a disgrace)

BTW if you think it is a straw man why do both major parties in the UK accept private prisons operated for profit though neither will coutenance new private for profit schools?

Hopelessly inconsistent.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

Why? They are all inspected by the government and held to the same standards. They are liable to penalties and loss of contracts (if only others in the public service could be fired for rubbish service)

Monbiot calls it a revolting trade in human lives.

What a tool. May as well argue for a ban on private GPs because of Harold Shipman

oooh all those GPS making money out of sick people. How disgusting.

A ridiculous analogy. Prison staff in state run prisons get paid to be there. They aren't vultures.

The sickening bit is PROFITING from human misery.

Quick question meds - you even been inside a jail?

I've been in plenty (visitor!) and the notion that you'd actively profit off it is s**t.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

There is no logical reason to think the state can run a prison better than private owners. Further if a private operator is no good then their contract can be revoked/not renewed. This is what happens with the train operators.

The public sector is an horrendously expensive joke in the UK. It is not hard to see why this has happened (though ppp's are a disgrace)

BTW if you think it is a straw man why do both major parties in the UK accept private prisons operated for profit though neither will coutenance new private for profit schools?

Hopelessly inconsistent.

Again, the purity of theory comes out.

There is tonnes of EVIDENCE to show private jails perform worse than state run, in plenty of juridstictions.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Victoria, Australia for starters.

There is Barwon which is public and there is Port Phillip which is private and there is a world of difference with the public being the better of the two from all reports.

There is the Deer Park Metropolitan Women's Correctional Centre / Dame Phyllis Frost Centre for women which was private but their contract was revoked and the state took it back over.

 

[medusala]

Quick question meds - you even been inside a jail?

had a very quick look inside Pentridge once

I've been in plenty (visitor!) and the notion that you'd actively profit off it is s**t.

Ideological toss pottery.

Private companies made cluster bombs and all sorts of nasties. How is that ie the arms trade not worse?

The pharmaceutical trade and their marketing to doctors makes this issue seem pathetically insignificant.

 

[medusala]

Again, the purity of theory comes out.

There is tonnes of EVIDENCE to show private jails perform worse than state run, in plenty of juridstictions.

Then the private operators lose contracts.

It is not hard to fathom

http://www.politics.co.uk/briefings-guides/issue-briefs/policing-and-crime/private-prisons-$366691.htm

A June 2003 report by the National Audit Office expressed deep concern about a number of aspects of the service provided by PFI prisons. It pointed to a lack of experienced staff and a high staff turnover. As a result, it argued, the environment in private prisons is generally less safe than in publicly-run prisons, where prison officers on average have more experience.

The report also warned that the terms of the contracts under which private prisons are run have not been properly refined, and concerns have been expressed about the commercial confidentiality that surrounds the terms under which prisons are being run. Nonetheless, the report concluded on the whole that private sector involvement had benefited the Prison Service, through competition and through the experience of managing commercial PFI contracts.

It is noteworthy, however, that many of the private prisons are among the best run in the system, according to reports from the Chief Inspector of Prisons. It is also questionable how else the government would be able to succeed in funding the construction of the prisons necessary to house the ever-increasing prison population. However, when the Government sought a private operator for the failing Brixton prison, not one potential bidder came forward.

 

[medusala]

If only this could happen to many parts of the public service where dud management and staff stay in place despite stuff up after expensive stuff up.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...of-contract-to-run-private-prison-739625.html

Group 4 yesterday became the first company to be stripped of its contract to run a privatised prison.

The decision by the Home Office minister, Paul Boateng, to take Buckley Hall prison in Rochdale, Greater Manchester, into the public sector is believed to be the first example of renationalisation by this Government. Group 4 said it was "astonished" by the move.

Mr Boateng did not say why the contract had been taken from Group 4 but said an in-house team from the Prison Service had submitted a superior bid for the 10-year contract, which begins next year.

 

[Clay Davis]

I love how your obfuscate meds. It's absurd. Some kids get wrongly imprisoned via improper incentives in the profit motive, and yet it's still a better system because it isn't inefficient.

SLF has you lot bang on about being just as insane as Marxists.

 

[medusala]

I love how your obfuscate meds. It's absurd. Some kids get wrongly imprisoned via improper incentives in the profit motive, and yet it's still a better system because it isn't inefficient.

In the US. That in no way means that would happen elsewhere.

The facts do not support your argument.

People have died in drug tests due to pharma companies chasing $.

Do you want to stop that as well?

Epic logic fail

SLF has you lot bang on about being just as insane as Marxists.

The only thing bang on is that you share his ignorance of neo classical economics.

 

[Wally Carter]

Here in Scotland, a newly opened private prison is seeing rioting that doesn't happen in the state establishments.

Reason?

Kalyx hires as few, as cheap staff as possible.

And now, because they get fined everytime contraband is found, they do less and less searches and pay less attention, which means there's a thriving drug trade which all that entails.

Private prisons are a joke.

Do Scottish prisoners have the legal right to sue the prisons if they are harmed due to dereliction of duty?

 

[Clay Davis]

In the US. That in no way means that would happen elsewhere.

The facts do not support your argument.

What facts? That the 'efficiency' of private prisons makes it worth locking up people who are innocent?

People have died in drug tests due to pharma companies chasing $.

Do you want to stop that as well?

Stop what? When people partake in drug tests they know the risks. Are people supposed to assume that the risks of living in society is that you might be locked up for a petty crime?

Epic logic fail

What?

The only thing bang on is that you share his ignorance of neo classical economics.

Sure, nutter.

 

[Chief]

In the US. That in no way means that would happen elsewhere.

And yet you have in the past used statistics from European countries to argue against things like gay marriage and looser drug policies in Australia.

You're slipping mate.

 

[fairdinkum]

Here's another problem with this 'private do a better job than public and if they don't they lose the contract' argument.

Who is it that hands out the contracts? The very same government we apparently shouldn't trust due to their inefficiency/incompetence.

 

[nut]

We should privatise our Universal Health system too... that works so well in the US.

 

[TheBloods]

Private prisons make no sense.

 

[Inferno]

Victoria, Australia for starters.

There is Barwon which is public and there is Port Phillip which is private and there is a world of difference with the public being the better of the two from all reports.

There is the Deer Park Metropolitan Women's Correctional Centre / Dame Phyllis Frost Centre for women which was private but their contract was revoked and the state took it back over.

A few years back we had a school excursion to Barwon and talked to some of the prisoners, the ones who had been in Port Phillip (normally referred to as "Port Putrid") said Barwon was luxurious and safe in comparison due to PP cutting as many corners as possible for profits.

 

[blackcat]

It is a logical extension of the same argument. Are you aware of Dr Shipman?

There is no logical reason to think the state can run a prison better than private owners. Further if a private operator is no good then their contract can be revoked/not renewed. This is what happens with the train operators.

The public sector is an horrendously expensive joke in the UK. It is not hard to see why this has happened (though ppp's are a disgrace)

BTW if you think it is a straw man why do both major parties in the UK accept private prisons operated for profit though neither will coutenance new private for profit schools?

Hopelessly inconsistent.

Meds, you are comparing a market transaction between two individuals, or one and the public hospital MD, and compulsory detention, where an individual is placed by the gov't with a private operator. Just how is this not a strawman? The private operator only comes to the dynamic because of the third party, the gov't. If your reply is that is a prison sentence (duh), and the incarcerated has no choice by definition, you ignore the voluntary transaction on the other analogy on GPs.

Remember, your world theory criticises the gov't interfering with the market, so you must see the manifest inconsistency in this argument. Even if a patient chooses the public option medical care, they are still engaging in voluntary transaction. It is a normal market transaction. The private imprisonment, is not a transaction with that dynamic.

If your argument is the gov't is the party engaging in a transaction, to be an operator or outsource that responsibility, and it is a voluntary market transaction, this is what the argument about, why this is flawed. You cannot justify it is rational, because that is the question at hold here. Why the private operation is not an appropriate option. The assumption already stands, it is a private option. You cannot justify it, it is a private option and since it is a free market transaction it has good. No, that is the argument, why it is flawed.

 

[blackcat]

Here's another problem with this 'private do a better job than public and if they don't they lose the contract' argument.

Who is it that hands out the contracts? The very same government we apparently shouldn't trust due to their inefficiency/incompetence.

well the political apparatchiks who drink from the neo-classical holy water come in to gov't with the aim of destroying the public service and inducing structural incompetency so the defacto option is private. They intend on gov't provision to be wanting and unsatisfactory.

 

[nut]

why not copy a system that actually work??? ie. Norway.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

A few years back we had a school excursion to Barwon and talked to some of the prisoners, the ones who had been in Port Phillip (normally referred to as "Port Putrid") said Barwon was luxurious and safe in comparison due to PP cutting as many corners as possible for profits.

Ah yes, the good old schools program.

Just out of interest, did you actually get anything out of the school program?

 

[TheBloods]

why not copy a system that actually work??? ie. Norway.

Give it a rest! Your hero worship of Norway and its transferability is misplaced, as explained a number of times.

 

[placebo]

We should privatise our Universal Health system too... that works so well in the US.

A few people have told you this so many times now...
But to imply that Americas health care is completely privatised is absurd.

 

[medusala]

And yet you have in the past used statistics from European countries to argue against things like gay marriage and looser drug policies in Australia.

You're slipping mate.

??? I am in favour of drug liberalisation.

The same issues re private prisons and corruption have not occurred in the UK (and other places) as they have in the US.

The evidence on other subjects such as drugs/immigration etc tends to be globally consistent.

The evidence re private prisons is not.

 

[medusala]

Here's another problem with this 'private do a better job than public and if they don't they lose the contract' argument.

Who is it that hands out the contracts? The very same government we apparently shouldn't trust due to their inefficiency/incompetence.

I agree it is an issue. PPP's in the UK and Australia have by and large been a disgrace and horrendous for taxpayers. The desal plant in Victoria is another example where the government has engaged in blatant corruption and shafted taxpayers (though oddly few seem to care).

The issue often comes down to this though:

Which is easier cancel a contract or sack public servants?

The latter is almost impossible.

Private jails make no sense in plenty of countries just as in many such as Singapore and HK the state can run a transport system very effectively.

The reason private running of prisons in the UK came about was largely due to the attitude of the union, a problem countries like Singapore and HK (and the US largely) dont have.

And for those who think state run prisons in the UK were sensational.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/3536330.stm

5 August, 2004

The controversial practice of prisoners slopping out in Scotland's largest jail has finally ended.

Hundreds of prisoners still slop out in Polmont, Perth, Edinburgh and Peterhead prisons.

 

[Dont be a lemon]

Then the private operators lose contracts.

It is not hard to fathom

Yeah... years later when the contract(s) expire.

Bit late for the prisoners who had to live with it.