Hawthorn's Premeirship tally - A result of zoning and nothing else

[Bayer_]

It was me who wrote this extract, and I have come to the realisation that Hawthorn's premiership tally was clearly the result of a flawed country zoning system. A good comparison would be Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen's dominance of Queensland politics in the same period: both were due to zoning systems that served to ensure their success through giving them unfair access - in the National Party's case to parliamentary seats, and in Hawthorn's to young footballers. Just as seats in the National heartland were allowed to have enrolments half those of Brisbane-based (Labor or Liberal) seats, Hawthorn's country zone had something like five times as many potential VFL footballers as those of Melbourne or Gellong or South Melbourne.

By definition, then, country zoning was a gerrymander in exactly the same way many Australian electoral systems were: it had boundaries drawn to favour some clubs over others. If rotating zones was impossible, the VFL could have split Hawthorn's zone into two. Melbourne, impoverished and tied to the bottom of the ladder under country zoning, could have been given the eastern half. (In this context, I will as why the Yarra Valley region, contiguous with Melbourne's country zone, wasn't part thereof rather than being seen as "metropolitan" when it was much less so than the Frankston/Peninsula region??).

In such circumstances, Hawthorn did not have to have a huge following or wonderful administration to win flags. More than that, the noncombative, accepting-of-defeat culture of most of eastern and outer suburban Melbourne disappeared from Hawthorn through recruits from its country zone.

In fact, if one looks at the histories of Hawthorn and St. Kilda, the two clubs adversely affected by the culture of noncombative marianismo so prevalent in eastern and outer-suburban Melbourne, one sees that almost all their success has been heavily dependent on players from the Peninsula region. In a 1987 Age article, St. Kilda insiders admitted that the loss of players from the Peninsula resulting from country zoning was a major factor in St. Kilda's return to the bottom of the ladder (a position it and Hawthorn monopolised between 1941 and 1955).

At times, when I think of this, one can almost believe that the VFL was mistaken in many respects when dealing with the whole area east and south of the Yarra, at least from the time Hawthorn were originally admitted. Hawthorn's admission was favoured because it would cost existing clubs less than that of Footscray or North Melbourne or Prahran, but the VFL had no knowledge of how the culture of the eastern side of the city would ensure Hawthorn won only 111 of its first 522 VFL games. One can perhaps see similar misjudgments in the location of VFL Park and (to a much lesser extent) the movement of St. kilda to Moorabbin. In both cases, I feel that a better location would, as the histories of Hawthorn and St. Kilda show, much further south and nearer to Port Phillip Bay, where both transport and demand for footy would have been higher.

You've come to the wrong place with your creative writing skills Mr. Unlisted. HFC did OK from the Peninsula; they did even better from the injection of culture by one Mr. John Kennedy, who predated the zoning era.

Now run along.

 

[GuzzLG]

To summarise:

Hawthorn = St Kilda + the biggest unfair advantage in VFL/AFL history given to a club

 

[Frankston Rover]

It was me who wrote this extract, and I have come to the realisation that Hawthorn's premiership tally was clearly the result of a flawed country zoning system. A good comparison would be Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen's dominance of Queensland politics in the same period: both were due to zoning systems that served to ensure their success through giving them unfair access - in the National Party's case to parliamentary seats, and in Hawthorn's to young footballers. Just as seats in the National heartland were allowed to have enrolments half those of Brisbane-based (Labor or Liberal) seats, Hawthorn's country zone had something like five times as many potential VFL footballers as those of Melbourne or Gellong or South Melbourne.

By definition, then, country zoning was a gerrymander in exactly the same way many Australian electoral systems were: it had boundaries drawn to favour some clubs over others. If rotating zones was impossible, the VFL could have split Hawthorn's zone into two. Melbourne, impoverished and tied to the bottom of the ladder under country zoning, could have been given the eastern half. (In this context, I will as why the Yarra Valley region, contiguous with Melbourne's country zone, wasn't part thereof rather than being seen as "metropolitan" when it was much less so than the Frankston/Peninsula region??).

In such circumstances, Hawthorn did not have to have a huge following or wonderful administration to win flags. More than that, the noncombative, accepting-of-defeat culture of most of eastern and outer suburban Melbourne disappeared from Hawthorn through recruits from its country zone.

In fact, if one looks at the histories of Hawthorn and St. Kilda, the two clubs adversely affected by the culture of noncombative marianismo so prevalent in eastern and outer-suburban Melbourne, one sees that almost all their success has been heavily dependent on players from the Peninsula region. In a 1987 Age article, St. Kilda insiders admitted that the loss of players from the Peninsula resulting from country zoning was a major factor in St. Kilda's return to the bottom of the ladder (a position it and Hawthorn monopolised between 1941 and 1955).

At times, when I think of this, one can almost believe that the VFL was mistaken in many respects when dealing with the whole area east and south of the Yarra, at least from the time Hawthorn were originally admitted. Hawthorn's admission was favoured because it would cost existing clubs less than that of Footscray or North Melbourne or Prahran, but the VFL had no knowledge of how the culture of the eastern side of the city would ensure Hawthorn won only 111 of its first 522 VFL games. One can perhaps see similar misjudgments in the location of VFL Park and (to a much lesser extent) the movement of St. kilda to Moorabbin. In both cases, I feel that a better location would, as the histories of Hawthorn and St. Kilda show, much further south and nearer to Port Phillip Bay, where both transport and demand for footy would have been higher.

As I've posted before, NAME THEM. Give me the names of the players from the Mornington Peninsula that magically won us 9 flags.

No long words, no Queensland parliamentary comparisons, no biased, jealous bullshit, just give me the names of these Peninsula premiership stars.

Fal gave me Richard Loveridge (who played in 2 flags) and Russell Sheilds (who played 17 games) amongst 9 players from the Peninsula Zone (even though Loveridge was recruited from Scotch College), so if you could add any others, it would be much appreciated.

To summarise:

Hawthorn = St Kilda + the biggest unfair advantage in VFL/AFL history given to a club

To summarise:

GuzzLG = wambat + better spelling

 

[Falchoon]

You've come to the wrong place with your creative writing skills Mr. Unlisted. HFC did OK from the Peninsula; they did even better from the injection of culture by one Mr. John Kennedy, who predated the zoning era.

Now run along.

St Kilda did well with the introduction of culture by Allan Jeans who predated the zoning era. It also fell apart under him, Hawthorn dominated under him.

Apples v apples

 

[Falchoon]

Fal gave me Richard Loveridge (who played in 2 flags) and Russell Sheilds (who played 17 games) amongst 9 players from the Peninsula Zone (even though Loveridge was recruited from Scotch College), so if you could add any others, it would be much appreciated.

How many team of the century players would it take?

Given that Loveridge played his junior football on the Peninsula how many other private school boys did you rip from others country zones?

Sporting scholarship by any chance?

 

[PottSie2]

I didn't think I would get to enjoy the 80's again, but thanks to all the jealousy in this thread, it appears some of the joy is coming back.

Great decade
Great team

 

[Pessimistic]

Is this bitterness why they tried to destroy us in '96, admittedly with our assistance ?

Hawthorn suffered more than most with the introduction of clubs from outside victoria, and the national draft, and the shunting first to princes park then to VFL park. (not as much as fitzroy Ill admit though)

Lets not forget the recruiting of non victorians was also a significant factor in our success.

I like how one poster highlights the 'softness' of the eastern suburbs (hawthorn camberwll being middle class commuter suburbs) but Now hawthorns heartland is the outer east. Many of the families which came there since the 70s are children of people form the 'harder' suburbs in central, west and north melbourne.

its taken us 18 years to win another flag in the new circumstances, give us time to prove what we can do in the new regime. In actual fact only one melbourne club equals us in the last 10 years - thats essendon

 

[The Kipster]

Not to mention their 1991 premiership against a 5 year old club and the fact it wasn't even played at the MCG. Clearly doesn't count.

far more relevant than your so-called flags before the 1930's...they are ****en ridiculous and you w***ers hang your hat on them...LOL at you Essenscum SPUDS

 

[Chewy]

Everyone knows Hawthorn managed to dominate the 70s, 80s and pull the 2nd premiership of the 90s but the question had to be asked how they managed to have such success and dominate the competition for such a long period?

The answer, being given a helping hand through the flawed zoning system which gave them unprecidented access to some of the best players from this era.

Since the zoning system was disbanded and no longer could be argued to have any effect on the competiton, Hawthorn has only managed to win one premiership, which is considered by many to be nothing but a Bradbury.

This begs the question as to how successful Hawthorn really has been? The Dawks supporters love boasting about how dominant and successful they were in the 1980s, yet this had nothing to do with a well managed and successful off-field club.

Hawthorn have shown they really are a very very mediocre club when it comes down to the crunch, much like they were in their first 40 plus years by only managing to win one premiership without the favouritism of zoning.

2009 proved this through and through.

Hahaha, what a joke! Geelong had the greatest recruiting zone of all Victorian clubs. Their recruiting well was far deeper than those of the 11 Melbourne teams. This is why the Cats have managed to remain reasonably competitive throughout their history and rarely fell to the bottom of the ladder for very long. Ironic that the most talented footballer to be recruited from out of Hawthorn's country zone played just 6 games for the Hawks. His name? Gary Ablett. But our team-first values meant Ablett had no place at Hawthorn. While Ablett starred for Geelong and became their greatest ever footballer, Hawthorn concentrated on teamwork and won five premierships from 1983-1991. Gary Ablett snr: ZERO premierships.

Hawthorn was given a decent recruiting ground in the 60's and 70's, but they still had to develop those players. Perennial wooden-spooners, St Kilda were basically handed Hawthorn's zone and fat lot of good it did them. One of the main reasons why Hawthorn dominated the 70's and 80's was they had good administration, much like Geelong do now. The Hawks didn't go broke like Richmond and Collingwood did in chasing big-name recruits from other clubs - we developed our own players from the eastern suburbs and country zones and we topped this up with some great players from interstate: Hudson, Eade, Robertson, Buckenara, Platten, Dunstall and many others.

Geelong's biggest problem in the 70's and 80's was they could never afford to top up their list with any interstate recruits. This is why they remained anchored to the middle or lower half of the ladder. They were paupers. Back in the 60's, Geelong were perennial finalists, thanks to gun interstate recruits like Polly Farmer and Denis Marshall.

Hawthorn defeated Geelong in the famous 1989 Grand Final and just FIVE of these 20 premiership heroes were recruited from their country zones.

 

[Falchoon]

Hawthorn defeated Geelong in the famous 1989 Grand Final and just FIVE of these 20 premiership heroes were recruited from their country zones.

There's no argument that Hawthorn used their zone induced success to become one of the better attracters of interstate talent.

Interestingly the only player keeping Geelong in it was from the Hawks country zone.

 

[mess]

There's no argument that Hawthorn used their zone induced success to become one of the better attracters of interstate talent.

Why would there be? There's barely any argument that Hawthorn even had any 'zone induced' success.

Interestingly the only player keeping Geelong in it was from the Hawks country zone.

Hmm. Yes. Damning.

 

[Chewy]

There's no argument that Hawthorn used their zone induced success to become one of the better attracters of interstate talent.

Yeah, right. I'm sure you'd move interstate, purely for the opportunity of working for a successful company and money would never even enter the equation.

Bay 13 is always good for a laugh.

Interestingly the only player keeping Geelong in it was from the Hawks country zone.

If you actually read my post, you'd know that I already mentioned Gary Ablett.

Ironic that the most talented footballer to be recruited from out of Hawthorn's country zone played just 6 games for the Hawks. His name? Gary Ablett. But our team-first values meant Ablett had no place at Hawthorn.

Ablett's origins are irrelevant in any case. He hardly contributed to hawthorn's success.

No sensible person would deny there was some good talent back in the 70's in Gippsland and Mornington Peninsula, but to say this was sole reason for Hawthorn's success glosses over the many reasons why the Hawks were so successful. They were able to acquire good footballers from ALL channels and DEVELOP them to play the Hawthorn way. Ian Bremner was a Collingwood reject and became a star in Hawthorn's backline in the early 70's. Terry Wallace was originally tied to Fitzroy, but he was regarded as too slow and was rejected. He won 2 best and fairests and played in 3 premierships.

Russell Greene was a wasted talent at St Kilda. At Hawthorn, he learned discipline and selflessness. He quit drinking and got himself fit. He went on to play 300 games, captained Victoria, won the AFLPA MVP and played in 3 premierships. He would've achieved none of that if he'd stayed at Moorabbin with Trevor Barker and St Kilda party boys.

Something I find ironic about the OP (written by a Geelong fan) is that I remember Geelong icon, Bobby Davis denigrating Hawthorn back in the late 80's. He reckoned Hawthorn wasn't THAT good... that many of the Hawthorn players weren't that good if you got 'em out in the open in a one-on-one contest. The funny thing is... He was right! Many of the Hawthorn footballers actually were no better than players from any other club. It was how they able to team together that made them so good. But the muppets on Big Footy (and Bob Davis) never quite understand this concept of "team". They think football teams are only as good as the sum total of their individuals. This is partly why I argued with many Geelong posters on here about their plethora of All-Australians, who I regard as overrated as individuals. They are a great team and they play for each other, just like Hawthorn back in the 80's.

 

[Falchoon]

Yeah, right. I'm sure you'd move interstate, purely for the opportunity of working for a successful company and money would never even enter the equation.

Why would Hawthorn pay more than Collingwood ?

if i was making 20k in Melbourne and had 5 companies offering me 80k in Auckland I'd probably go for the one with the greatest upside, the money in making the choice of which one is completely irrelevant.

No sensible person would deny there was some good talent back in the 70's in Gippsland and Mornington Peninsula, but to say this was sole reason for Hawthorn's success glosses over the many reasons why the Hawks were so successful.

Sole reason? Bay 13 is always good for a laugh.

Something I find ironic about the OP (written by a Geelong fan) is that I remember Geelong icon, Bobby Davis denigrating Hawthorn back in the late 80's. He reckoned Hawthorn wasn't THAT good... that many of the Hawthorn players weren't that good if you got 'em out in the open in a one-on-one contest. The funny thing is... He was right! Many of the Hawthorn footballers actually were no better than players from any other club. It was how they able to team together that made them so good. But the muppets on Big Footy (and Bob Davis) never quite understand this concept of "team". They think football teams are only as good as the sum total of their individuals. This is partly why I argued with many Geelong posters on here about their plethora of All-Australians, who I regard as overrated as individuals. They are a great team and they play for each other, just like Hawthorn back in the 80's.

the flankers and fringe players probably weren't, but the goal to goal line and on ball division was awesome.

 

[smasha]

Hawthorn's greatest player,Leigh Matthews,came from Bonbeach.

How that became a Hawthorn zone is beyond me.

More St. Kilda.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

Yep, the colours were part of a generic emblem stolen from American sport.

Fixed.

 

[Frankston Rover]

There's no argument that Hawthorn used their zone induced success to become one of the better attracters of interstate talent.

I'll say it again, Hawthorn also had a coterie group, which was set up in the late 70's, as a way to fund interstate players.

Our success was a result of our culture, nurturing talent and funding interstate players to come over from the west.

To suggest it was all down to our Mornington Peninsula zone is laughable.

Hawthorn's greatest player,Leigh Matthews,came from Bonbeach.

How that became a Hawthorn zone is beyond me.

More St. Kilda.

I suggest you buy a time machine and head back to the late 1950's.

Bonbeach then is what Nyora is now.

 

[Falchoon]

I'll say it again, Hawthorn also had a coterie group, which was set up in the late 70's, as a way to fund interstate players.

Our success was a result of our culture, nurturing talent and funding interstate players to come over from the west.

To suggest it was all down to our Mornington Peninsula zone is laughable.

Come on.

using the same logic - to suggest the Mornington peninsula & West Gippy had nothing to do with it even more laughable.


let's compare with Collingwood

1. more than 3 times as many 16 year old boys to choose from.
2. coterie group to fund players > Collingwoods what? zero resources in this area
3. Hawthorn culture > Collingwood culture
4. Greater nurturung of talent rather than greater talent.

spare me if i give greater weight to number 1.

 

[Big Pipes]

Hahaha, what a joke! Geelong had the greatest recruiting zone of all Victorian clubs. Their recruiting well was far deeper than those of the 11 Melbourne teams. This is why the Cats have managed to remain reasonably competitive throughout their history and rarely fell to the bottom of the ladder for very long. Ironic that the most talented footballer to be recruited from out of Hawthorn's country zone played just 6 games for the Hawks. His name? Gary Ablett. But our team-first values meant Ablett had no place at Hawthorn. While Ablett starred for Geelong and became their greatest ever footballer, Hawthorn concentrated on teamwork and won five premierships from 1983-1991. Gary Ablett snr: ZERO premierships.

Hawthorn was given a decent recruiting ground in the 60's and 70's, but they still had to develop those players. Perennial wooden-spooners, St Kilda were basically handed Hawthorn's zone and fat lot of good it did them. One of the main reasons why Hawthorn dominated the 70's and 80's was they had good administration, much like Geelong do now. The Hawks didn't go broke like Richmond and Collingwood did in chasing big-name recruits from other clubs - we developed our own players from the eastern suburbs and country zones and we topped this up with some great players from interstate: Hudson, Eade, Robertson, Buckenara, Platten, Dunstall and many others.

Geelong's biggest problem in the 70's and 80's was they could never afford to top up their list with any interstate recruits. This is why they remained anchored to the middle or lower half of the ladder. They were paupers. Back in the 60's, Geelong were perennial finalists, thanks to gun interstate recruits like Polly Farmer and Denis Marshall.

Hawthorn defeated Geelong in the famous 1989 Grand Final and just FIVE of these 20 premiership heroes were recruited from their country zones.

This is probably some of the most devastating writing you will ever see on Bay 13... possibly on all of Bigfooty.

Personally I couldn't write anything so utterly perfect and provide such an argument massacre as Chewy has supplied, but as a Hawks supporter and someone with a functioning brain, I will more than happily ride his coat-tails.

 

[Frankston Rover]

Come on.

using the same logic - to suggest the Mornington peninsula & West Gippy had nothing to do with it even more laughable.


let's compare with Collingwood

1. more than 3 times as many 16 year old boys to choose from.
2. coterie group to fund players > Collingwoods what? zero resources in this area
3. Hawthorn culture > Collingwood culture
4. Greater nurturung of talent rather than greater talent.

spare me if i give greater weight to number 1.

And yet you struggle to name 9 premiership players from our Mornington Peninsula zone over a 30 year period.

 

[Falchoon]

I suggest you buy a time machine and head back to the late 1950's.

Bonbeach then is what Nyora is now.

on the suburban train system?

 

[Falchoon]

And yet you struggle to name 9 premiership players from our Mornington Peninsula zone over a 30 year period.

I thought I gave you a goal to goal line and ruck division sans Don Scott.

 

[Frankston Rover]

I thought I gave you a goal to goal line and ruck division sans Don Scott.

So Matthews, Moore, Brereton and Mew all played in 9 premierships as well as playing from 1961 until 1991.

Geez, that news to me....

 

[Falchoon]

So Matthews, Moore, Brereton and Mew all played in 9 premierships as well as playing from 1961 until 1991.

Geez, that news to me....

as i've said before there are no asterix on the 1961 flag nor the 2008 flag

as for what's news to you, you can stretch any point to it's limit and call it news if you wish, the above is news to me too.

here's a question I don't have an answer to, how many private school boys did you pinch from other zones?

 

[Frankston Rover]

as i've said before there are no asterix on the 1961 flag nor the 2008 flag

as for what's news to you, you can stretch any point to it's limit and call it news if you wish, the above is news to me too.

here's a question I don't have an answer to, how many private school boys did you pinch from other zones?

Irrelevent.

This thread is titled:

"Hawthorn's Premeirship tally - A result of zoning and nothing else"

If you want you can start a new one called:

"Hawthorn's Premeirship tally - I'm Grasping At Straws Now"

 

[Falchoon]

Hawthorn was given a decent recruiting ground in the 60's and 70's, but they still had to develop those players. Perennial wooden-spooners, St Kilda were basically handed Hawthorn's zone and fat lot of good it did them.

This is probably some of the most devastating writing you will ever see on Bay 13... possibly on all of Bigfooty.

St Kilda acquired 3 quality players and a Hawks reject from being handed (ie one player per year) the Hawthorn zone and went from perennial wooden spooner to perennial finalist, I'd call that some good, pity we didn't have another 15 years of it.