Hawthorn's Premeirship tally - A result of zoning and nothing else

[Falchoon]

Irrelevent.

This thread is titled:

"Hawthorn's Premeirship tally - A result of zoning and nothing else"

If you want you can start a new one called:

"Hawthorn's Premeirship tally - I'm Grasping At Straws Now"

Mate you've brought up St kilda about 15 times now, I ask one question in addition to the thread title and it's irrelevant.

Consistency is not a strong point of yours is it.

you may want to explain how it contradicts the thread title, the private schools weren't in Hawthorns zone?


Twist twist squirm squirm.

any reason you keep neglecting the SWGFL in every attempted contradiction of fact?

 

[Frankston Rover]

St Kilda acquired 3 quality players and a Hawks reject from being handed (ie one player per year) the Hawthorn zone and went from perennial wooden spooner to perennial finalist, I'd call that some good, pity we didn't have another 15 years of it.

Really? You played finals in 1991 and 1992 then slumped back to 12th in 1993, 13th in 1994 and 14th in 1995.

Yeah, that zone really kicked you along...

 

[Big Pipes]

Probably more accurate:
"Hawthorn's Premiership Tally - Fictional and creative excuses as to why it's better than ours"

Seriously, when the discussion turns to premierships and success, it's probably best if St Kilda, Footzgray and Freo don't contribute.

 

[Falchoon]

Irrelevent.

This thread is titled:

"Hawthorn's Premeirship tally - A result of zoning and nothing else"

If you want you can start a new one called:

"Hawthorn's Premeirship tally - I'm Grasping At Straws Now"

just to quote that again as I find it almost as humorous as some of your Paint piccies. just for posterity and my own amusement

A question on potentially pinching players from other teams country zones through your Metro zone contradicts a thread titled
"Hawthorn's Premeirship tally - A result of zoning and nothing else"?

I'm just not seeing it Franga, you are now trying so hard that you've lost touch with a little reality and logic. Muddying the waters does not dilute the point, as much as you care to try.

 

[Frankston Rover]

any reason you keep neglecting the SWGFL in every attempted contradiction of fact?

Beacuse SWGFL WAS a country league in the 1960 and 1970's.

Tooradin, Warragul, Drouin, Beaconsfield were all country towns with populations to match.

Berwick wasn't developed until the late 70's/early 80's.

Ayres was drafted from Warragul and started played in 1978. Are you suggesting Warragul WASN'T a country town in 1978?

Are you suggesting Drouin WASN'T a country town in 1973, when Geoff Ablett was drafted?

Are you suggesting Berwick WASN'T a country town when Michael Tuck walked into our club in 1972?

Because if you think these places weren't rural or were less rural than areas around Geelong, Ballarat or Bendigo, then you have serious delutions.

 

[Falchoon]

Really? You played finals in 1991 and 1992 then slumped back to 12th in 1993, 13th in 1994 and 14th in 1995.

Yeah, that zone really kicked you along...

and then back to finals in '97 & '98

logically if we were "perennial" wooden spooners then we must have become "perennial" finalists ....

...on the back of our 3 peninsula boys and Hawthorn reject.

Does this come under the thread title there Franga police.

 

[Frankston Rover]

and then back to finals in '97 & '98

logically if we were "perennial" wooden spooners then we must have become "perennial" finalists ....

...on the back of our 3 peninsula boys and Hawthorn reject.

Does this come under the thread title there Franga police.

Well with our 4 Peninsula boys and a St.Kilda reject (Russell Greene) we made 7 Grand Finals in a row and won 4 flags and never missed the finals until the mid 1990's.

Boy they were some players, given Moore, Matthews, Loveridge, Shields weren't even playing...

 

[Falchoon]

Beacuse SWGFL WAS a country league in the 1960 and 1970's.

Tooradin, Warragul, Drouin, Beaconsfield were all country towns with populations to match.

Berwick wasn't developed until the late 70's/early 80's.

Ayres was drafted from Warragul and started played in 1978. Are you suggesting Warragul WASN'T a country town in 1978?

Are you suggesting Drouin WASN'T a country town in 1973, when Geoff Ablett was drafted?

Are you suggesting Berwick WASN'T a country town when Michael Tuck walked into our club in 1972?

Because if you think these places weren't rural or were less rural than areas around Geelong, Ballarat or Bendigo, then you have serious delutions.

do you think Keysborough was a country town in 1970
Doveton
Narre Warren

I'm happy to concede anything past Pakenham

But repeating myself again

In 1966 the population of the city of Cranbourne was 13,000, by 1981 it was 35,000, Dandenong went from 31,000 to 54,000, Springvale (incl Keysy) went from 39,000 to 77,000, Berwick 14,000 to 36,000, Frankston 42,000 to 78,000, Mornington shire 10,000 to 23,000. Even Hastings went from 7,000 to 17,000.

country town or no country town, there's 150,000 people living in the area in 1966.

 

[Hawksgirl4eva]

ok just because st kilda and geelong have only won 5 premeships between them over the last 150 years and just because hawthorn kicked geelons arse in 08 and 89 there is no need to have a whinge.
we have won more premerships than you guys, and we are a younger club.
we have won 10 premerships and are the most succesful club over the past 5 decades because we are good.
and becuase un like geelong and stkilda we play as a team.
so dont make excuses to make you feel better

 

[Falchoon]

ok just because st kilda and geelong have only won 5 premeships between them over the last 150 years and just because hawthorn kicked geelons arse in 08 and 89 there is no need to have a whinge.
we have won more premerships than you guys, and we are a younger club.
we have won 10 premerships and are the most succesful club over the past 5 decades because we are good.
and becuase un like geelong and stkilda we play as a team.
so dont make excuses to make you feel better

sig.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

Footzgray.

Duh is dat near Hoorfawn?

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

ok just because st kilda and geelong have only won 5 premeships between them over the last 150 years and just because hawthorn kicked geelons arse in 08 and 89 there is no need to have a whinge.
we have won more premerships than you guys, and we are a younger club.
we have won 10 premerships and are the most succesful club over the past 5 decades because we are good.
and becuase un like geelong and stkilda we play as a team.
so dont make excuses to make you feel better

Well that was unnecessary. And wrong.

Geelong have won 8 on their own buddy.

 

[Hawksgirl4eva]

Well that was unnecessary. And wrong.

Geelong have won 8 on their own buddy.

sorry typed the wrong number in.
and it wasnt unnecessay, this whole topic was unessessary and wrong and down right stupid.

 

[Mcchawk]

Seems someones bitter losing the 2009 Grand Final.

 

[Falchoon]

Seems someones bitter losing the 2009 Grand Final.

You will have to forgive me I'm psychic

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13494292&postcount=65

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13494588&postcount=70

SIG

 

[Mcchawk]

You will have to forgive me I'm psychic

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13494292&postcount=65

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13494588&postcount=70

SIG

Bitter

 

[Falchoon]

Bitter

keep trying

 

[Frankston Rover]

do you think Keysborough was a country town in 1970
Doveton
Narre Warren

I'm happy to concede anything past Pakenham

But repeating myself again

In 1966 the population of the city of Cranbourne was 13,000, by 1981 it was 35,000, Dandenong went from 31,000 to 54,000, Springvale (incl Keysy) went from 39,000 to 77,000, Berwick 14,000 to 36,000, Frankston 42,000 to 78,000, Mornington shire 10,000 to 23,000. Even Hastings went from 7,000 to 17,000.

country town or no country town, there's 150,000 people living in the area in 1966.

Springvale? Dandenong? They never played in the SWGFL. And Keysborough was market gardens. Berwick, Mornington Shire and Frankston I'll give you.

Those totals come to 154,000.

Let's have a look at another statement you used earlier.

You said Ballarat's population remained stagnant.

Given Ballarat in the 1960's had a population around 75,000.

Add to that areas now incorporated by Golden Plains (population 16,450), Avoca and Beaufort (population 6,558), Maryborough (13,000), Bacchus Marsh and Ballan (around 18,000), Ararat (11,000)

That totals 129,000.

Now YOUR area had STAGNANT population - meaning you STARTED with around 130,000 people in 1960.

Hawthorns zone STARTED with around 80,000 and grew to the 154,000 by 1981, meaning we were only on a level playing field with you, population wise, by about 1975.

You still drafted a 300 game full back, the greatest full forward ever and 3 B&F winners from that zone and you did JACK SHIT.

Why?

Because the culture of your club was pitiful. It was a joke.

 

[Chewy]

Why would Hawthorn pay more than Collingwood ?

if i was making 20k in Melbourne and had 5 companies offering me 80k in Auckland I'd probably go for the one with the greatest upside, the money in making the choice of which one is completely irrelevant.

For god's sake! Did you even follow football back in the eighties? It wasn't a free agent market. We had a transfer system. Clubs "owned" their players. For the right price, they would "clear" them to play for another club. Buckenara came to Hawthorn because we paid his WA club, Subiaco something like $200,000. Not because he weighed up offers from Hawthorn, Carlton and Collingwood and decided we were the best team.

It was nothing like the recent auction for Chris Judd. The VFL was still a state competition. In the seventies and eighties, most of the poorer VFL clubs were unable to afford the big name players from WA or SA. This left the rich clubs like Carlton, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Richmond and North Melbourne to go after the interstate recruits. There were many good players who plied their trade in the WAFL and SANFL. VFL clubs weren't in competition with each other to sign up every champion from interstate. You couldn't buy them all.

Sole reason? Bay 13 is always good for a laugh.

Yeah, when I saw the thread title, "Hawthorn's Premeirship tally - A result of zoning and nothing else" and then read the opening post, I did form the impression the OP thought it was the "sole reason" four our success.

Excuse me if this was a wild assumption on my part.

the flankers and fringe players probably weren't, but the goal to goal line and on ball division was awesome.

Do you mean Matthews, Knights, Tuck and Moore in the 70's? Or do you mean Tuck, Ayres, Mew and Brereton in the 80's? I think you'll find most clubs had three or four gun players from their country zone at any one time. Do we place asterisks next to Essendon's 1984-85 flags because they had Watson, Neagle, Merrett, Daniher and so on?

Come on. Using the same logic - to suggest the Mornington peninsula & West Gippy had nothing to do with it even more laughable.

Let's compare with Collingwood

1. more than 3 times as many 16 year old boys to choose from.
2. coterie group to fund players > Collingwoods what? zero resources in this area
3. Hawthorn culture > Collingwood culture
4. Greater nurturung of talent rather than greater talent.

spare me if i give greater weight to number 1.

If there was a high-priced dud to pinch from another VFL club or from interstate, then Collingwood was all over them like a rash. They basically threw away their money trying to buy a flag: Phil Carman, Greg Phillips, Mark Williams, Ian Stewart, Geoff Raines, Mike Richardson, Gary Shaw, Glenn McLean (the dud ruckman from Melbourne), Ross Brewer, Craig Davis, Allan Edwards, Kevin Morris, Ray Byrne, Mike Woolnough, Russel Ohlsen, Gubby Allan, Warwick Irwin, Michael Taylor, John Annear, Graham Teasdale, Bruce Abernethy

I'm being harsh on some of those guys, they weren't all duds. But none of them helped the Magpies win a flag. Collingwood had an open cheque book and raided many clubs, but it did not help them a great deal because they weren't overly selective about who they pinched. David Cloke was probably the exception to the rule.

St Kilda acquired 3 quality players and a Hawks reject from being handed (ie one player per year) the Hawthorn zone and went from perennial wooden spooner to perennial finalist, I'd call that some good, pity we didn't have another 15 years of it.

From their country & outer suburban zones, St Kilda was able to recruit players such as Carl Ditterich, Cowboy Neale, Geoff Cunningham, Greg Burns, Danny Frawley, Tony Lockett, Robert Harvey, Nathan Burke, Stewart Loewe and Peter Everitt. Not all of these guys were from Hawthorn's old zones, but the point remains: St Kilda had access to some great players via the old zone system and yet they were unable to match Hawthorn's success.

Unlike Hawthorn, who found good players from many sources, the Saints "brains trust" were unable find/develop enough good players to round out their list and support their stars. That's why you still shed a tear when you look at your faded Fab Four posters and remember St Kilda's 1997 Grand Final defeat. St Kilda was in a much better position than Hawthorn to take advantage of the equalisation rules (draft and salary cap) but for years their drafting SUCKED!!

God knows how many quality kids slipped through St Kilda's fingers in the 80's due to their poor development programs. I should know. I grew up in St Kilda's zone. I played with (and against ) many kids who should've gone onto good VFL/AFL careers, kids who had all the size and ability in the world, but fell by the wayside and weren't properly nurtured by the shambolic rabble at Linton St. I'm not joking either! And you dare to cast aspersions Hawthorn pinching kids from out of their zone via the private school system, as if this ever happened... Go on... Name one!

Hawthorn and St Kilda were both successful under the coaching of legends, John Kennedy and Allan Jeans.
Those guys both resigned after the 1976 season.

Hawthorn coaches from 1977 to 1991:

• David Parkin
• Allan Jeans
• Alan Joyce

St Kilda coaches from 1977 to 1991:

• Ross Smith
• Michael Patterson
• Alex Jesaulenko
• Grahm Gellie
• Tony Jewell
• Darrel Baldock
• Ken Sheldon

Yeah, it was probably all because of the ZONES...

Good club culture, stable admin, good coaching, healthy local zones, healthy country zones, wise spending on high-priced mercenaries from other clubs or interstate, salvaging rejects from other clubs

There are many reasons why Hawthorn (and other clubs) were able to achieve success. I don't say that the father-son rule is the sole reason for Geelong's success. It's one of many reasons.

As Frankston Rover has said, don't try to tear down the success of other clubs just because your club, St Kilda is the biggest joke in league history. Jealousy is a curse and will get you nowhere in life.

 

[Falchoon]

And you dare to cast aspersions Hawthorn pinching kids from out of their zone via the private school system, as if this ever happened... Go on... Name one!

If I ask you how you are going, is that casting an "aspersion" that you're not doing very well?

How can I name one the question was prefaced with "here's a question I don't know the answer too"

As Frankston Rover has said, don't try to tear down the success of other clubs just because your club, St Kilda is the biggest joke in league history. Jealousy is a curse and will get you nowhere in life.

If I was jealous of Hawthorn's zone induced success I'd barrack for them. I chose to barrack for Liverpool because they won everything, I understand the concept.

The biggest free kick in football history, give Geoff Ogilvy a hole head start and he's the greatest golfer of all time. Sure he still needs to get the job done but it just became a whole lot easier.

I'm not sure why there's a St Kilda lesson in that post, I'm sure it has some relevance somewhere, me personally, I'm quite aware of St Kildas shortcomings.

As I said previously, I have the same opinion on the zone concessions that created the Brisbane superteam and I can be pretty darn sure they didn't cost St Kilda any flags.

But I guess it has St Kilda under my user name and it is the Bigfooty simpletons way to diflect using that very fact.

There are many reasons why Hawthorn (and other clubs) were able to achieve success. I don't say that the father-son rule is the sole reason for Geelong's success. It's one of many reasons.

It just might be the 5% extra that takes Geelong from their 80's 90's nearly there to their late 00's dominance.

 

[mess]

If I was jealous of Hawthorn's zone induced success I'd barrack for them.

Hahaha! What a shit supporter!!!

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Hahaha! What a shit supporter!!!

Quite the opposite mess.

 

[Bombers 2003]

OP seems to have the same brain capacity as a non convicted killer.

That would be higher than yours bumma
flog!

 

[mess]

Quite the opposite mess.

How do you figure? He just admitted he can't withstand a bit of jealousy without jumping ship. Not too many ways to take that, I would've thought...

 

[Chewy]

If I ask you how you are going, is that casting an "aspersion" that you're not doing very well?

How can I name one the question was prefaced with "here's a question I don't know the answer too"

Here's a question I don't know the answer to:
Were the St Kilda players using performance-enhancing drugs in 2009?

Here's another question I don't know the answer to:
Was that Falchoon I saw emerging from the public toilets and wiping semen from his lips?

Don't try to come the raw prawn with me... You were casting aspersions.

The biggest free kick in football history, give Geoff Ogilvy a hole head start and he's the greatest golfer of all time. Sure he still needs to get the job done but it just became a whole lot easier.

I'm not sure why there's a St Kilda lesson in that post, I'm sure it has some relevance somewhere, me personally, I'm quite aware of St Kildas shortcomings.

As I said previously, I have the same opinion on the zone concessions that created the Brisbane superteam and I can be pretty darn sure they didn't cost St Kilda any flags.

But I guess it has St Kilda under my user name and it is the Bigfooty simpletons way to diflect using that very fact.

Simpleton? I thought I made it clear. St Kilda also recruited good players from their country zones, but because of poor junior development, poor coaching, poor club culture and poor finances, they were unable to achieve success.

Your analogy of Ogilvy receiving a one hole head start is nothing but plain bollocks. I already mentioned Essendon as an example. They recruited a lot of good players from their country zones, but unlike St Kilda, they were able to do something with it and won two flags in the 80's. As I said in my initial post, for years and years, Geelong had the greatest recruiting ground of all Victorian clubs.

Whining about the "free kicks" handed out to certain successful clubs is a losers' game, so this is why your St Kilda allegiance becomes relevant to this discussion. People like you choose to ignore the many reasons why a football club wins the flag and you focus on the "free kicks" instead.

You could find "unfair" reasons for EVERY premiership, goose.

• 2009 - Geelong - father/son rule, staging for free kicks and the reigning premiers had injuries
• 2008 - Hawthorn - priority picks and exploiting the loophole with rushed behinds
• 2007 - Geelong - father/son rule, staging for free kicks and the reigning premiers had injuries
• 2006 - West Coast - tanked for draft picks (Judd in 2001), father/son rule (Cousins) and performance-enhancing drugs
• 2005 - Sydney - extravagant salary cap concessions which allowed them to chase players like Hall, Williams, Bolton, Davis, Ball and Jolly
• 2004 - Port Adelaide - given a free kick in 1997 when they listed South Australians such as Tredrea, Dew, Burgoyne, Wanagneen, Wilson, Heuskes, Paxman, Eagleton, James, Lade, Francou, Primus, Kingsley and Tom Harley. Their extra day's rest also worked against the Lions.
• 2001-03 - Brisbane - received salary cap concessions, intravenous drips, plus eight former Fitzroy players
• 2000 - Essendon - cheated the salary cap, used performance enhancing drugs and Lloyd dived forwards and received unwarranted free kicks

Can't you see that none of it matters? That your snipes are just the whining of a little baby?

If St Kilda win the flag in 2010, should all of us dismiss it, or place an asterisk next to it because of all the daft picks the Saints have harvested?