Disastrous Recruiting decisions

[SaintsSeptember]

I heard that Ablett didn't like the City life, and that the Cats were able to convince him that Geelong offered a more "country" lifestyle. ( He obviously got over it in his later years when the city seemed to be his choice for nightlife ).

No bad decisions on the Hawks behalf, the Cats were just better able to deal with the cranky ****.

 

[Norfolk Nadia]

Ian Downsborough had just won the Eagles clubman award and hadn't been asked to be traded ...just was ...to secure the Number 1 pick

Loyalty is a One Way Street

 

[Sekaj]

Laurence Angwin for Adelaide. Hoping (and believing) our club will never have a **** up as monumental as that ever again.

 

[Partridge]

From memory Ablett played 6 games for the Hawks, he wasn't traded as such but later re-ignited his career with Geelong. WHo won out of this deal we'll never know as Ablett didn't settle with Joyce or Jeans (can't remeber which one). Geelong paid around $60,000 in compo i think for his services.

The Hawks went onto to become the best team of the 80's whilst Geelong never won a flag with G Ablett. Had he stayed who knows what could've happened how things would change, players, structures, arguments, clashes?? Could Ablett, Dunstall Brereton all play together effectively in same fwd line amongst others?

It was Jeans, as it was well before Joyce was in charge in 1988. I'd hardly say Hawthorn went on to become the best team - they were already pretty damn good. Good enough to win premierships in 1976 and 1978 - so it's not like they'd been starved of success.

The simple truth is Ablett was not the first (and won't be the last) kid from the country to not settle at a Melbourne club. Paul Couch and Ken Hinkley didn't settle at Fitzroy. It's not an isolated phenomenon. Ablett became a superstar at Geelong and Hawthorn had a great side, but I'm not sure either had any effect on the other. That's just the way it works out sometimes.

For Geelong-related drafting or trading blunders, letting Greg Williams walk in 1986 over $5,000 was infinitely worse.

Thankfully, we haven't made too many lately. But all clubs do it. Check out who we drafted in 1999 after Joel Corey and before Chappy for proof.

 

[Asgardian]

We've had a few at Port

Taking Ian Downsborough as our 4th, and last, uncontracted player selection in the 1996 trade period

or

Taking John Rombotis at pick 6 in the 1996 National Draft

But we've also traded for Paul Geister, Brent Heaver, Chris Naish, Aaron Shattock & Nathan Lonie

Go figure hey?

 

[tribey]

Also for port when they gave us pick 1 for Ian Downsborogh and maybe Bond not sure. We got Gardiner. I remeber our recruiting team saying it was hardest decision they made trading downsborough.

It was a necessity to trade the 1st and 2nd round concession picks for uncontracted players in reverse order, so you guys got pick #1 and #24 for Ian Downsborough (with a sweetener of ex-Port boys Shane Bond and Brayden Lyle for a lowly 4th rounder).

Essendon got #2 and #25 for Gavin Wanganeen.

Brisbane got #3 and #26 for Matthew Primus (a rort given Primus was outside the 8 players that Brisbane selected from the merger and wasn't contracted).

Sydney got #4 and #27 for Adam Heuskes.

Essendon got #5 and #28 for Scott Cummings.

 

[75Cardies]

It was Jeans, as it was well before Joyce was in charge in 1988. I'd hardly say Hawthorn went on to become the best team - they were already pretty damn good. Good enough to win premierships in 1976 and 1978 - so it's not like they'd been starved of success.

Thankfully, we haven't made too many lately. But all clubs do it. Check out who we drafted in 1999 after Joel Corey and before Chappy for proof.

I say went on as the Hawks won 5 of the next 10 flags. Sure they were good before then but become great after that.

i still think it was a win/win for both clubs still paying dividends today.

Whilst on geelong...

Remember Richmond taking Kent Kingsley (PSD) off Geelongs hands and also Getting Ottens from richmond in a different trade for 12 (Danny Myer)and 16 (Adam Pattison) - (12 came from melbourne for moloney)

I'd also say Trever Cook to Geelong form WCE was brilliant move by Costa as well, probably one of the most important ingredient in Geelong recent success

20 (sam Butler) to eagles for Haynes was a low light though for cats

Michael Prior for 27 from essendon..ouch

Jason Ball to Sydney for 11 (Darren Glass) & 41 (Kane Munro) - this isn't disatrous as ball was premiership ruckman but d glass is premiership full back (and one of best in business) and captain.

 

[Damon_3388]

Pretty damn impressive if he really got 18.2

Here's the top that I found doing a search (these are by no means official)

1    19/2    Håkan Mild    Football (Soccer)    Played for IFK Gothenburg. Had been rumored to have completed the test, though his best of 19/2 was confirmed on Swedish radio (if you understand Swedish, you can listen to the interview on radiosporten, from January 2009)
2    19    Graham Bashop    Rugby Union    This All Black scrum half apparently achieved this in the early 90's.
3    17/1    Kini Qereqeretabua    Rugby Union    Fiji. This effort is very impressive, especially considering that he is 103kg.
4    17    Sebastian Coe    athletics    UK middle distance champion runner
5    17    Lee Gong Dook    Football (Soccer)    Premier League player
6    17    Livermore    Hockey (Field)    Australian field hocky player
7    17    Steve Nash    Basketball    NBA point guard, played with the Dallas Mavericks
8    16/1    Maurizio Minetti    Handball    Achieved by this player from Ossola, Italy in Oct 2009. (unconfirmed result, submitted by visitor)
9    15/11    Simon Black    AFL     Brisbane Lions club record.

• source

Almost 3 levels above Simon Black. If you've never done a beep test before, at that top level it goes impossibly fast.

RoJo would've had to cover 20 metres over about 3 seconds

There's never been a confirmed report of anyone completing the beep test. Beckham alledgedly did it, and Lance Armstrong, but these have been dispelled.

It goes up to level 23... it would take some kind of cyborg to do that. Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if a decathlete or Carl Lewis could have/did completed it.

According to this table from Australian site Top End Sports, the Beep Test has 21 Levels consisting of 247 20m Shuttles, totalling a distance of 4,940m, which if completed, would need to be ran in 22:01.

Level 1 consists of 7 Shuttles, at 9 seconds/Shuttle (8km/h), while Level 21 consists of 16 Shuttles at 3.89 seconds/Shuttle (18.5km/h). According to the VO2max calculator and the VO2max norm values from the same website, a Beep Test score of Level 13, Shuttle 11 is equal to a VO2max of 60.19, which is what is required from a 18-24 year-old male to be in the "Excellent" range for VO2max. Anything above 13.11 in the Beep Test for an 18-24 year old male would therefore be considered "excellent", and also quite difficult, and finishing the Beep Test would be almost impossible.

I think Carl Lewis was more of a sprinter than an endurance athlete too

Top End Sports has a whole lot of reported Beep Test results of different athletes from different sports at this page. Here is the Australian Rules Football section for those interested:

AFL draft camp results[/URL].
[*]The top two in the West Coast Eagles club records for the beep test are 1. Callum Chamber who once reached 16.01, and 2. Chris Judd with 15.14. The next three had high 15s: Rowan Jones, Josh Wooden and Kasey Green (as seen on an Eagles clubroom tour, and quoted on BigFooty.com, Jun 2009).
[*]The beep test is performed at the Draft Camp each year. Some of the best results in previous years are: 15.08 by Tom Rischbieth in 2005, and 15.06 by Jarrad McVeigh (2002) and David Spriggs (1999). See more draft camp results.
[*]Dean Cox of the West Coast Eagles, a tall ruckman, is reported to score in the high 14s for the beep (The Daily Telegraph, April 09).
[*]Essendon's Scott Gumbleton, who was the #2 draft pick in 2006, is preparing well for this season. He achieved 15.2 in the beep test, which is not bad for a player 200cm tall (from DreamTeamTalk website, Jan 2009).
[*]West Coast Eagles: 19-year-old Mitch Brown, coming back from a knee injury, won the first pre-season beep test with a score of 15.0. Midfielder Matt Priddis also scored 15.0 in the same test. (AFL.com, Oct 2008).
[*]Brisbane Lions: Last year only four Lions recorded beep test scores of 15 or more. This year there were six, and three of the club's best runners - Luke Power, Simon Black and Joel Patfull - didn't participate. (Courier Mail, Jan 08).
[*]Bomber Mark Johnson recorded a 15.2 beep test during the 2007 season, placing him in the elite group at Windy Hill (Herald Sun, Oct 2007).
[*]At the 2007 Pre-Season Draft Camp, the potential top pick, ruckman Matthew Kreuzer had the 10th best beep test, reaching level 14.2. The best beep score this year was 15.2 by Cale Morton (Chris Judd got 15.1 back in 2001) (Oct 2007).
[*]It is reported the reigning Premiers and reputedly the fittest team, the West Coast Eagles, have more than 12 players who score level 15 and above (Jan 2007).
[*]Simon Black of the Brisbane Lions has the club record of 15.11 (from 2005)
[*]At the AFL draft camp in 2005, Tom Rischbieth scored 15.08, beating the record of Sydney's Jarrad McVeigh 15.06 which he scored in 2002, and Sydney teammate David Spriggs 15.06 from the 1999 draft camp.

[/LIST]

Which particular flag did this cost you? 1974 when you finished 10th or 1975 when you finished 6th?

As diablo14 and Ricmel said, the Saints probably would have won the flag in 1971 if that year's Brownlow Medallist Stewart was still there. Instead they went down to Hawthorn by 7 points in the Grand Final that year.

The Saints were also a finals team in 1972 (4th) and 1973 (5th), and it's fair to say that a player of Stewart's quality would have greatly enhanced the side in those years as well. Stewart only played 12 games total in 1974 and 1975, so he was on the decline by then, but it's fair to say his trade cost the Saints at least one Premiership, and possibly another (depending on his impact in '72/'73), especially considering that they ended up getting pretty much got nothing in return for trading him.

 

[Johnny_Segment]

Which club wantonly ignored Andrew McKay for Mark Viska? Every club has 'em.

All-time worldwide candidate has to be England striker Alan Shearer. Trialled with a bunch of local boys in the Newcastle catchment as a goalkeeper at age 15. Told he wouldn't make it. Two years later he's scoring a hattrick for Southampton vs Arsenal. 10 years after rejection he's bought by his boyhood heroes for a world record £16 million.

Makes the likes of Harley and Peter Bell look like sound business.

Another worldwide candidate has to be Red Auerbach in 1980 trading the Boston Celtics 1st and 13th picks to Golden State for the 3rd pick and Robert Parish. Celtics then took Kevin McHale with that pick and with Robert Parish the 2 established one of the greatest front courts delivering a dynasty.

 

[Norfolk Nadia]

The Mother of All Bad Trades

The Herschel Walker Trade


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade

 

[Damon_3388]

Another worldwide candidate has to be Red Auerbach in 1980 trading the Boston Celtics 1st and 13th picks to Golden State for the 3rd pick and Robert Parish. Celtics then took Kevin McHale with that pick and with Robert Parish the 2 established one of the greatest front courts delivering a dynasty.

And the Warriors got Joe Barry Carroll and Rickey Brown out of it

The Mother of All Bad Trades

The Herschel Walker Trade


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade

Terrible work from the Vikings there. Such a multi-faceted, complicated trade, and to be fair, they couldn't have reasonably known that it'd turn out so well for the Cowboys though. Draft picks are traded around more and considered to have much less value in the NBA and NFL than they have in the AFL too.

 

[Warwick]

Every team bypassing a 17 year old Jonathan Brown.

Brisbane have picked up and traded for various spuds like all teams, but two decisions could have really helped:

1. If Nick Riewoldt was a year younger, or if the recruiting zone rule was not changed to 25km the year he was taken, he would have been in Lions colours. Not sure how we would have fitted Lynch, Brown, Riewoldt, and Bradshaw in the same team but it would have been a sight to behold.

2. Could have had Marc Murphy for a virtual freebie if he hardened up.

Giving up Craig Bolton and Jason Gram for nothing has really bit us in the arse. We were never able to keep them due to salary cap pressures and they were the logical couple to trade as they were not getting a game, but they would have really helped the last couple of years.

 

[Sedat!]

Sorry, you clearly missed my earlier post where I mentioned I was only looking at first round draft picks...

And where I mentioned that we had done very well with our later picks.

And it was obviously some master plan to recruit rubbish and then trade it to Wallace for better players. Face it. Recruiting McMahon, Power and Walsh cost us big time, as none of them delivered. For first round draft picks, they were poor selections.....

Walsh was a disastrous recruiting decision (in hindsight), but I don't think you can call 100 game players 'disasters'. All of McMahon, Power and Ray played some good football for the Dogs but were not able to sustain it on a consistent basis. You could certainly call them disappointments for the Dogs, but disastrous is far too strong a word IMO. It was certainly not part of the master plan to trade these guys on, but at least we did it at precisely the right time while they still had decent currency in the market.

 

[DrJon]

Fremantle trade pick 1(Luke Hodge), 20(some hack) , 36(Sam Mitchell) to Hawthorn for Trent Croad and McPharlin. Croad plays 38 games for Freo over 2 Seasons. Freo then trade Croad back to Hawthorn for Pick 10(Ryley Dunn) who was delisted at the end of 2008 after playing just 5 games.

Hawthorn got a premiership captain, a norm smith medalist and a good premiership player.

Freo got McPharlin. Who has been an average player for them. Who defently hasn't set the world on fire.

Now that is one big **** up.

I'm not sure why people keep including the actual players that picks get.
It's nothing to do with Freo as to who Hawthorn use with their pick is it?

Above: obviously Hodge was pick 1 and Freo could easily have picked him; however to include Mitchell shows nothing, except good drafting. And no-one mentions that the Hawks obviously consdiered Daniel Elston to be a better player than Sam Mitchell, which is why they used pick 20 on him.

 

[estibador]

I'm not sure why people keep including the actual players that picks get.
It's nothing to do with Freo as to who Hawthorn use with their pick is it?

Above: obviously Hodge was pick 1 and Freo could easily have picked him; however to include Mitchell shows nothing, except good drafting.

That's a good point. If the Hawks had picked some hack instead of Mitchell would people suddenly consider the trade to be magically less disastrous for Freo even though we still gave up exactly the same amount?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I'm not sure why people keep including the actual players that picks get.
It's nothing to do with Freo as to who Hawthorn use with their pick is it?

Above: obviously Hodge was pick 1 and Freo could easily have picked him; however to include Mitchell shows nothing, except good drafting. And no-one mentions that the Hawks obviously consdiered Daniel Elston to be a better player than Sam Mitchell, which is why they used pick 20 on him.

True. If you had kept pick one you may well have picked Luke Ball, who , while showing plenty of potential, would struggle with injury before deserting you for another club. Probably no better off than with Trent Croad.

Interesting that second round picks in that draft were pretty average , with Steve Johnson probably the stand out. ( Though Matt Maguire made a name for himself as well ).

Then in third round there was Montagna and Mitchell.

Then in the fourth round they were still getting hits with, Medhurst, Schneider, and Swan.

Makes you wonder if any of the recruiters knew what they were doing.

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

Yes StKilda's current list would have no hope of making and being competative in a grand final without Lovett ..... Oh wait.

Well done on being ... "competitive"... Im sure that the memory of being competitive is very satisfying. Going to watch a dvd of my team win a flag now. Wonder which one I'll choose...hmmmmm

 

[Peck]

Saint kilda's entire trade week last year.

Xavier for pick 60???? Seriously!

Geelong delisting davenport confuses me also.

 

[the woodsmen2010]

Well done on being ... "competitive"... Im sure that the memory of being competitive is very satisfying. Going to watch a dvd of my team win a flag now. Wonder which one I'll choose...hmmmmm

this

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Well done on being ... "competitive"... Im sure that the memory of being competitive is very satisfying. Going to watch a dvd of my team win a flag now. Wonder which one I'll choose...hmmmmm

Yeah I know, but i'm sure it was better than being a Port supporter watching the 2007. At least I could sit through the whole game. Thats the difference between competative and uncompetative.

My post was a response to someone saying that the Lovett deal was a disaster for the Saints.
While I was watching the Grand Final the thoughts going through my head were more along the lines of "why didn't Milne kick that goal " than " If only we had Andrew Lovett on the team we would be in with a chance "

If we can be as competative again this year we are in with a chance at the flag. Its not like all hope was hinging on Lovett. We may not have the icing , but we still have the cake.

 

[chinggis77]

The Mother of All Bad Trades

The Herschel Walker Trade


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade

Um, the great bambino trade as the worst trade in world history?

Babe Ruth sold for $100,000 to New York in 1920. Babe Ruth hit 665 of his 714 career homers for the Yankees, including 54 in his first season in the Bronx. He led the Yankees to seven World Series appearances and four titles, and the greatest dynasty in the history of professional sports was born.

Boston ended up suffering the "curse of the bambino". After winning the title with Ruth in 1918 before trading him, it took 86 years to win another one!

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Saint kilda's entire trade week last year.

Xavier for pick 60???? Seriously!

Geelong delisting davenport confuses me also.

There are some serious w***ers on Big footy. All Saints supporters have heard for years is how crap both Clarke brothers were.
Suddenly we are idiots for giving him a try at another club.

I rate Xavier Clarke fairly highly as a player, but the Saints have others coming through that can perform any role he can, and we just couldn't keep him fit.

Xavier was not the Savior. And Lovett was not the Messiah, he was just a very ( very , very, VERY ) naughty boy.

 

[Bring-Back-Powell]

Is it true that Richmond gave up a top 20 draft pick for Jordan
McMuffin

 

[MAXIMUM GRUNDAGE]

that's harsh, who else were you going to get who was any good in Janruary as a compensation pick after the unfortunate death of Troy Broadbridge.

It was between him and Adrian Cox from Hawthorn, I believe.
I would rather have had Troy still playing for us. Can't think of who else was available at the time. Nick Sautner would have been a better choice. Or a young player who was overlooked in the draft, rather than a hack like Motlop.
Should have realised there was a reason North axed him. The only reason I can think why we got him was to try to lure Daniel to our club.

 

[The_Todd07]

Um, the great bambino trade as the worst trade in world history?

Babe Ruth sold for $100,000 to New York in 1920. Babe Ruth hit 665 of his 714 career homers for the Yankees, including 54 in his first season in the Bronx. He led the Yankees to seven World Series appearances and four titles, and the greatest dynasty in the history of professional sports was born.

Boston ended up suffering the "curse of the bambino". After winning the title with Ruth in 1918 before trading him, it took 86 years to win another one!

Once the posts started to shift towards worldwide trades the first the that came to mind was Ruth. But alas, you beat me to it.

The only thing that could possibly save Boston was that he was mainly a pitcher for them, so they may not have been able to predict he'd become a hitting machine with New York.
However after looking at his pitching stats, they were pretty impressive themselves. So trading him as a pitcher was still a massive stuff up