What is it with the Knicks?

[jod23]

I look at their roster and they have a really great squad of players but for whatever reason, cant seem to play together. Was it D'Antoni's fault? I guess we will find out now that he is gone. Or is it Melo's fault. 2-8 since his return. Lin leading the way they were 7-0. But the schedule has been tougher on NYK since Melo's return with games against SAS, Bulls, Mia etc...

But looking at their roster, it just screams talent.

Chandler is your beast rebounder and defender who is also good for 10 or so ppg. He is one of the best defensive bigmen in the league. Amare is a scorer and low post threat. Good for a double double most nights and is alright on the defensive end.

Melo is a bit of a liability on the defensive end but he is a flat out superstar. Isnt afraid to take the big shots, can be relied upon as a BIG time scorer. You need at least one superstar to win a title. He is it for the Knicks.

Landry Fields I just love. A lot of energy, can score, defend, gets up and down the floor, bit of an athlete.

At PG is where they struggled, then Jeremy Lin arrives. I love his energy, he can flat out score, gets his teammates involved. His only problem is his ability to take care of the ball. He need to reign his TO rate in a little.

Then the bench goes deep. Novak is your lights out spread the floor 3 point shooter. Jeffries is long, good defensively, brings energy. Baron Davis can still get it done. Very handy backing up Lin. He racks up 10 plus assists in about 10 minutes off the bench. Can still score too. JR Smith was a great pick up. Athletic, attacks the rim. Can score and hit the 3. Then the rookie, Shump, who is giving you almost 10ppg off the bench.

I just think they have a terrific roster and for whatever reasons, it just aint working? Anybody wanna have a stab and why. Is it all Melo's fault?

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

Melo will be better with Woodson in charge. Expect lots of iso plays. It worked perfectly with Joe Johnson in Atlanta and logic suggests this will suit melo too.

 

[PP34]

I wouldn't say Chandler is a beast rebounder, he lets go of too many rebounds. He is a decent defensive presence but not the force people make him out to be.

Carmelo Anthony is not a superstar in most peoples eyes. He is a great scorer but his defense is woeful. He also needs to do more than score.

Fields has been pretty bad since the Carmelo trade. No idea why.

Jeremy Lin's production has plummeted. Yes he is still putting up alright numbers but he's not that great. He is shocking at looking after the ball.

You forgot to mention Amar'e who was supposed to be their next franchise guy and he was then Melo came to NY. He entered this season out of shape and he seems to be lacking explosiveness. Doesn't get enough touches either.

As for the bench they're not as great as you're making them out to be.

Look the major problem with the Knicks is Carmelo and Amar'e. They haven't clicked at all and Carmelo has taken away lots of Amar'e's touches. The other major problem is defense. They're awful defensively and I'll say it right now a new coach will do nothing to fix it. You could hire the best defensive coach on the planet and they still won't be strong defensively. You can't just have one or two guys who have a clue about playing defense. The whole roster needs to be committed and have knowledge on both ends of the floor.

If they stay with Woodson things will get worse. The last thing the Knicks need is a coach who loves isolation. Amar'e needs more touches. Woodson would rather isolate Carmelo. It didn't work in Atlanta and it sure as hell won't work in New York.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Paper superstars FTW. Nobody could survive the stupid expectations of that team.

 

[hayes]

For starters when Linsanity started they were beating some of the worst teams in the league which counts for nothing. Now since Melo's come back they're playing better teams while trying to integrate all the new players. Combine that with the expectations of a NY team and it spells disaster.

 

[hamG]

Hey I wouldn't go so far as to give Woodson credit for Iso-Joe. All I saw was 5 years of this

 

[Stiffy_18]

I don't think they have a terrific roster. I have always said that with Melo and Amare as their guys they can never be contenders.

Neither is a superstar. To be a superstar you need to be a 2 way player and neither of them is. They are stars and arguably the best scorers at their position (this season aside for Amare) but they get really burnt the other way.

In the NBA to be a contender or a champion, you just flat out need to play defence. Your franchise players have to be two way guys otherwise you will always be a bridesmaid.

You just can't be a winner without defense.

 

[Byron_Clanger]

That's what happens when a team has zero commitment to defence

 

[savagelunchbox]

Amar'e needs to go back to Phoenix to play with a pass-first PG like Nash. Or vice vera, Nash goes to NY.

Lin isn't a pass-first PG, especially since he became an overnight favourite.

 

[jod23]

Bit unfair on Woodson, took an ATL team winning 16 games in his first season there to a 50 win team and back to back Eastern Conference Semi Finals. The guy can coach. But most of you are right with the dodgy defence. They played better D when Amare and Melo were watching.

I stick by my original statement though. Chock full of talent that roster. Just need to find a way to make it work.

 

[Wickzki]

Chock full of offensive talent. Aside from Chandler not one above average defensive player on that squad. A layup drill waiting to happen 15 minutes per night. They don't have the rebounding side of the game to overcome defensive deficiencies, either. If a team is average to poor in defense but rebound like maniacs possessed then it can occasionally make up for it but they're out rebounded most nights.

 

[peternorth]

I don't think they have a terrific roster. I have always said that with Melo and Amare as their guys they can never be contenders.

Neither is a superstar. To be a superstar you need to be a 2 way player and neither of them is. They are stars and arguably the best scorers at their position (this season aside for Amare) but they get really burnt the other way.

In the NBA to be a contender or a champion, you just flat out need to play defence. Your franchise players have to be two way guys otherwise you will always be a bridesmaid.

You just can't be a winner without defense.

melo is a star, often labelled a superstar, but to me he's a pure scorer. nothing else.

everything else you've said is spot on.

on paper they're great but say compare it to this one:

C: shaq
PF: green
SF: rice
SG: kobe
PG: harper
fox
fisher
horry
shaw
knight
salley
lue

ok, so we had shaq and kobe. dynamic and intimidating forces. the rest were basically role players who sacrificed their own game for the good of the team. cant see anyone at the knicks doing that

That's what happens when a team has zero commitment to defence

 

[Renegade]

C: Shaq
PF: Malone
SF: Fox
SG: Kobe
PG: Payton

Wasn't bad either.

C: Olajuwon
PF: Barkley
SF: Pippen
SG: Drexler
PG: Maloney

All teams we've seen like this have 2 seasons to win it all or it hits the fan. Just hope we can pull something out of our asses. Melo is the biggest worry, he thrives when he's the man...when he has to share or sometimes play second fiddle he's lost.

 

[peternorth]

C: Shaq
PF: Malone
SF: Fox
SG: Kobe
PG: Payton

Wasn't bad either.

C: Olajuwon
PF: Barkley
SF: Pippen
SG: Drexler
PG: Maloney

All teams we've seen like this have 2 seasons to win it all or it hits the fan. Just hope we can pull something out of our asses. Melo is the biggest worry, he thrives when he's the man...when he has to share or sometimes play second fiddle he's lost.

yep, star studded teams dont do s**t most times. you gotta have players who buy into the system. to me melo aint that person

 

[Stiffy_18]

melo is a star, often labelled a superstar, but to me he's a pure scorer. nothing else.

everything else you've said is spot on.

on paper they're great but say compare it to this one:

C: shaq
PF: green
SF: rice
SG: kobe
PG: harper
fox
fisher
horry
shaw
knight
salley
lue

ok, so we had shaq and kobe. dynamic and intimidating forces. the rest were basically role players who sacrificed their own game for the good of the team. cant see anyone at the knicks doing that

Absolutely!

Believe it or not but you CAN have too many stars on a team. You need 2-3 guys with a clear hierarchy of who is t1a and 1b and who is a 2. Your stars have to be 2 way player. One of them can be an adequate defender but the other 2 have to be great defenders.

The rest of the roster spots have to be filled up with complementary, quality role players. In your example above, there are clear superstars in Shaq and Kobe. The rest are role players. A tough defender and a rebounder in Green. A big defensive PG who brings ball handling and can shot a spot up 3 in Harper. A SF that will spread the floor with is 3pt shooting in Rice. And then the bench is just quality role payers that play their role every night they are called upon with common theme being defence, size and some shooting.

That is why it is impossible to build a good team around many players that need the ball to be effective and players who are not willing to sacrifice their game for the good of the team.

You are not expecting the superstars in Kobe and Shaq to do it because you ride them as much as possible but they still have to make some sacrifices in not being THE man EVERY night. One night its Shaq, the other is Kobe but overall, they both give you close to 30ppg over the course of the season. The rest comes from your role players.

 

[peternorth]

well said stiffy. always rated you as one of the more knowledgable posters around here.

 

[PP34]

I don't see Amar'e and Carmelo as stars. Even at their best level of play. Never have and never will. Amar'e has dropped right off this season anyway.

 

[Primetime Pricey]

I don't see Amar'e and Carmelo as stars. Even at their best level of play. Never have and never will. Amar'e has dropped right off this season anyway.

stars or superstars? they are not superstars like your LeBron's, Wades and Roses but they are the next level down which is all-star quality.

The expectations on them were unrealistic this season. The lockout didnt give them the chance to workout together and that was the case after the Melo trade last season as well.
They should with the talent they have be in the top 4-5 teams in the East and its a joke that they aren't. If the Knicks dont make the playoffs then it says a lot about the heart of that roster.

 

[peternorth]

im not buying the lack of training together thing. look at cp3 and the clippers, didnt hurt them/him.

 

[PP34]

The lockout affected every team practice wise.

 

[SlainteO'Hailpin]

Knicks need some Ubuntu (and a Rondo like passing guard)

 

[Dez!]

Trying to force pieces to fit together that don't fit as is without making sacrifices.

If Melo and Stat are to work, they have to be willing to sacrifice pieces of their individual games to make it work.

Pringles had the right idea of wanting to trade Melo for Deron Williams.

 

[savagelunchbox]

I don't see Amar'e and Carmelo as stars. Even at their best level of play. Never have and never will. Amar'e has dropped right off this season anyway.

Has been 1/2 the player he was since he left Steve Nash. Nash makes every player around him better and ups their worth. Did so with Marion, Richardson, Bell and Barnes. Nash would have to go down as the most unassuming maybe even underrated player in the modern NBA.

 

[PP34]

Has been 1/2 the player he was since he left Steve Nash. Nash makes every player around him better and ups their worth. Did so with Marion, Richardson, Bell and Barnes. Nash would have to go down as the most unassuming maybe even underrated player in the modern NBA.

I don't agree with that. He was great pre Carmelo Anthoy trade. He needs a pass first pg to be good off the pick and roll.

 

[peternorth]

I don't agree with that. He was great pre Carmelo Anthoy trade. He needs a pass first pg to be good off the pick and roll.

so basically ur calling melo a cancer