Shoenmakers

[Rumblah#16]

There's a thread on the main board applauding the arrival of Tom Hawkins, and it's littered with people apologising for how wrong they were to judge him when he was young and inexperienced.......the strange thing is that in that very same thread people are burning Schoenmakers.

Wow, just wow. Idiocy is apparently quite catchy.

It's amazing. The whole concept of a young player needing to grow into his body is bewildering to most.

 

[Hawkas1988]

There's a thread on the main board applauding the arrival of Tom Hawkins, and it's littered with people apologising for how wrong they were to judge him when he was young and inexperienced.......the strange thing is that in that very same thread people are burning Schoenmakers.

Wow, just wow. Idiocy is apparently quite catchy.

Yeah I saw that, hilarious.

I honestly think we should at least trial Schoey up forward for awhile, see if he swims or sinks in that position. I'm definitely not giving up on him as a player because he shows great upside, just not sure if he can handle being a KPD as this stage of his career.

 

[blackhead&boil]

then if he's not ready send him back to box hill until he's capable of actually holding his ground. I've sen plenty of young kids contest better than he has. I don't think he even drew level in a single marking contest, let alone actually win one. in fact, I don't think there was even one where he was just beaten. he got smashed in every respect. it was basically uncontested possession.

and even when he did get the ball passed to him he dropped it or turned it straight over.


he's not ready for this level, so give him a bit more time before you thrust him into a key position...

 

[mysainters]

I feel sorry for him, he always appears to be one out with the monsters.

I guess it depends on how teams structure up, Zac always appeared to have help though I realise under Ross it was probably likely at the time that we didn't have enough people in the forward line.

Not that many traditional fullbacks left these days I guess.

Will his performances improve with a Hodge back there helping structure up and given him a bit of support?

I hope the kids makes it, he must be made of pretty strong stuff to keep fronting up and copping it.

 

[Roby]

You make very valid points - but unfortunately for most it is easier to use shoey as the scapegoat rather than take a look at the midfield that allowed geelong such easy access to the ball and when you have that type of delivery coming into the forward line and you have man mountains like pod and hawkins down there it was always going to be a mission. In saying all that though him getting pinged for htb nearly did my head in

What if we wasn't a scapegoat? What if we had won? Would that change things? Would you say we won because of Schoenmakers?

 

[Rumblah#16]

Would like to hear from Gieshen how a couple of the contests weren't free kicks to Schoenmakers anyway.

I recall a few where you could see jumper being held, hands in the back etc.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

It's amazing. The whole concept of a young player needing to grow into his body is bewildering to most.

Apparently so, yep.

Hawkins - 101kgs
Schoenmakers - 86kgs

That's a 15kg difference, which is massive when you're talking about a guy standing next to another and trying to compete for the same space at the ball drop. In simpler terms, it'd be like Brad Hill trying to move Josh Gibson.

Hawkins also has played 86 games, Schoenmakers 37. He's a kid, still learning.

Clarkson needs to devise a way in which he can learn his trade without being left to bear the entire weight of a midfield dominating inside 50's. The support he got on Monday from Gibson, Stratton and others was almost non-existant.

 

[Furn]

There's a thread on the main board applauding the arrival of Tom Hawkins, and it's littered with people apologising for how wrong they were to judge him when he was young and inexperienced.......the strange thing is that in that very same thread people are burning Schoenmakers.

Wow, just wow. Idiocy is apparently quite catchy.

It happens to virtually every young kpp at some stage, as this thread in Ben Reid at about the same stage of his career Shoey is at now shows.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=689632

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Would like to hear from Gieshen how a couple of the contests weren't free kicks to Schoenmakers anyway.

I recall a few where you could see jumper being held, hands in the back etc.

It's the Cloke rule. Apparently the power forwards can now just shove blokes out of the way, without penalty.

Couldn't help but think that if a Geelong forward went flying out of a contested marking situation like Schoey did on Monday that you'd not even get to blink before the whistle was in the mouth of the ump.

 

[kolchak]

You're kidding me, free pass? You go on about this every single time schoey cops it. Bateman and Ozzy have been rightfully whacked and copped plenty this week.

Bateman and Ossie have proven themselves in the past and helped our team win finals. Shoey so far has not, yet they still cop it. They probably deserve a "free pass".

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

The problem is that had we not lost Croad, picked poorly with Dowler, Thorp, Muston, Ellis, etc and had Rough injured, he would have spent a lot more time at BH learning his trade, so that when he was asked to make the jump, he was ready.

In an ideal world too, he would not have been forced to tackle two of the best contested marking power forwards in the game, in the first two weeks of the year.

 

[Roby]

It happens to virtually every young kpp at some stage, as this thread in Ben Reid at about the same stage of his career Shoey is at now shows.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=689632

I've always liked Reid.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

The problem is that had we not lost Croad, picked poorly with Dowler, Thorp, Muston, Ellis, etc and had Rough injured, he would have spent a lot more time at BH learning his trade, so that when he was asked to make the jump, he was ready.

In an ideal world too, he would not have been forced to tackle two of the best contested marking power forwards in the game, in the first two weeks of the year.

I don't buy that.

Boumann was drafted last year, if they thought Schoenmakers was needing to be at VFL to learn, he'd be there.

 

[Rumblah#16]

Apparently so, yep.

Hawkins - 101kgs
Schoenmakers - 86kgs

That's a 15kg difference, which is massive when you're talking about a guy standing next to another and trying to compete for the same space at the ball drop. In simpler terms, it'd be like Brad Hill trying to move Josh Gibson.

Hawkins also has played 86 games, Schoenmakers 37. He's a kid, still learning.

Clarkson needs to devise a way in which he can learn his trade without being left to bear the entire weight of a midfield dominating inside 50's. The support he got on Monday from Gibson, Stratton and others was almost non-existant.

Agree. We saw in round 1 that Gibson was coming off his man to help him out, but that was because Boumann had Dawes and Schoenmakers had Cloke. Boumann got dropped and thus Gibson had to play tall.

I think that for the teams with two strong KPF (Geelong, Collingwood, West Coast and Adelaide, others too) we need to look at playing either Roughead in defense or fitting Boumann, Schoenmakers and Gibson in the backline.

Gibbo's chop outs are vital, he can't do that when he has tall timber himself.

 

[Off The Couch]

What if we wasn't a scapegoat? What if we had won? Would that change things? Would you say we won because of Schoenmakers?

Of course not - there is no disputing the kid struggles but he certainly doesn't deserve the vitriol he gets on this and the main board. He is 21 - grew up a forward and now playing in a position that is relatively new to him and playing on seasoned, big bodied players and receiving very little support from those around him.

The kid deserves a break and I seriously can't believe that you believe they lost that game solely because of Shoe.

 

[Glenferrie Oval]

. I just think he's been out of his weight division in both weeks though.

It's as simple as this. The 'blame' for the state we are in (tall key defender) is with the recruiters / coaches. But you can't have every position covered. Shoey needs to be congratulated for sticking with the job he was assigned. It was clarkson that didn't make a move, if you have a problem then direct it at clarko, if we had have won then the only half the crap written would come up.

I just hope he doesn't lose so much confidence that he doesn't want the ball to come to him. WTF not try stratton on cloke / Hawkins and see how they go?

I just hope gilliam has been in the gym while injured.

 

[Hawkas1988]

Bateman and Ossie have proven themselves in the past and helped our team win finals. Shoey so far has not, yet they still cop it. They probably deserve a "free pass".

I wasn't arguing that, I actually agree with you, Rumblah is the one who has consistently blasted bateman in the past but gets upset when Schoey cops it.

 

[Roby]

Of course not - there is no disputing the kid struggles but he certainly doesn't receive the vitriol he gets on this and the main board. He is 21 - grew up a forward and now put into a position he hasn't played before and playing on season, big bodied players and receiving very little support from those around him.

The kid deserves a break and I seriously can't believe that they lost that game solely because of Shoe.

This is not about winning or losing, we are talking about one player out of 22 on the day. My point is not the final result but the individual player's performance. To say he was given very little help is not an astute observation. You will find he was maybe given "too much" help. I think this is because our defenders do not hold a lot of faith in him, and in the end they end up losing their opponent crashing in to each other rather than defending properly. Schoey had plenty of support on the weekend.

I would say that it's just it is more damaging to players who are not selected week in who could do a better job, while Schoey gets a game. This is just a board, and people can express their opinions however they like, that's doesn't necessarily mean they can sprout whatever they like without a care in the world. I would say that help nobody.

On the other hand I have tired to be constructive in my posts, I have given examples and points to support my argument but I get slandered, and that's fine is it? I wonder where the vitriol is really coming from at the moment.

 

[kolchak]

I wasn't arguing that, I actually agree with you, Rumblah is the one who has consistently blasted bateman in the past but gets upset when Schoey cops it.

Think of that post as an enhancement of your post.

 

[Hawkas1988]

Think of that post as an enhancement of your post.

Haha my bad

 

[Furn]

I've always liked Reid.

Your easily impressed then, seeing as he had played around ten games at the stage Shoey is at now and none of them were good.

 

[Off The Couch]

This is not about winning or losing, we are talking about one player out of 22 on the day. My point is not the final result but the individual player's performance. To say he was given very little help is not an astute observation. You will find he was maybe given "too much" help. I think this is because our defenders do not hold a lot of faith in him, and in the end they end up losing their opponent crashing in to each other rather than defending properly. Schoey had plenty of support on the weekend.

So of the 22 players out there on the day, your telling me that it all came down to the performance of shoey - that is a massive statement and one that I seriously don't think you can support - there were deficencies in the midfield, our forward line didn't function that good, our ruck stocks were depleted and yet your laying it at one persons feet.

Your right, maybe I'm not as astute as you but I stand by my opinion that he was seriously lacking in support on Monday. Stratts has been off in the first two games this season - don't know if that's a confidence thing or still making his way back from long term injury but either way he hasn't been flash and Gibbo I think is carrying some sort of niggle and hasn't been upto par either and Birch went missing for the entire first half and obviously received a rocket because he came out looking a lot better in the second half. Maybe your right and the confidence is shot to pieces in defence but I absolutely refuse to lay that at the feet of a 21yr old.

I would say that it's just it is more damaging to players who are not selected week in who could do a better job, while Schoey gets a game. This is just a board, and people can express their opinions however they like, that's doesn't necessarily mean they can sprout whatever they like without a care in the world. I would say that help nobody.

Who do you think is missing out on playing senior football with the inclusion of Shoey and please do not give me Bouman. If you think Shoey got ragdolled then I shudder to think what they may have done to a lightweight like Bouman - in fact I wouldn't mind seeing him play on some big bodied forward just so we can put that discussion to bed once and for all - how about a darling, maybe a kennedy or even a Lynch.

On the other hand I have tired to be constructive in my posts, I have given examples and points to support my argument but I get slandered, and that's fine is it? I wonder where the vitriol is really coming from at the moment

.

Your right, everyone is entitled to their opinion and for the most part I support that but I see no purpose in dishing it out on Shoe the way it has been across these boards when in reality it is clarkson maybe that should be taking the brunt of the vitriol when it is him that is playing this young man out of position.

My biggest fear is that they could end up breaking him and a good footballer is going to be lost to the game - that would be a sad day indeed.

Respect is a two way street Roby and I don't recall ever getting personal with you over anything you posted but in saying that if your going to put your opinion out there then surely you expect to get a response to that opinion and not take offence (unless it does get personal) if someone disagrees with you.

 

[mainehawk]

I have refrained from posting since our loss on Monday.......But reading the Age on line today there was an article on Shoenmakers and the journo got his/her info from this site.......I just hope Shoey didn't read any of this vitriol/alcohol (we all know he's learning the trade)
I was as disappointed as anyone about Mondays' game.....but imagine how the guy must feel...........let's not crucify our players.
I feel he's just got to learn to position himself a little bit better

 

[dipper86]

.

Clarkson needs to devise a way in which he can learn his trade without being left to bear the entire weight of a midfield dominating inside 50's. The support he got on Monday from Gibson, Stratton and others was almost non-existant.

Thats just not fair, Gibson wasn't on an ordinary player, he was on pods, so rather than allowing him to concentrate on his own opponent he has to also worry about what Shoey is doing, ditto with Stratton on Johnson..... Shoey has to be able to compete in the 50/50 contests on his own 2 feet.

 

[Roby]

Your easily impressed then, seeing as he had played around ten games at the stage Shoey is at now and none of them were good.

No I am not and besides the hate from my Collingwood mates I always liked him. They were complaining about his disposals which was his forte, but most general observers know very little about kicking or technique. He was trying technically hard kicks to break the game open, and sometimes they weren't coming off. Like Stanton he gets criticized because he is a designated kicker. The same crap is said about Fyfe at the moment and I remember Shiels was getting the same criticism even though I kept saying he was technically sound kick.

Your right, everyone is entitled to their opinion and for the most part I support that but I see no purpose in dishing it out on Shoe the way it has been across these boards when in reality it is clarkson maybe that should be taking the brunt of the vitriol when it is him that is playing this young man out of position.

My biggest fear is that they could end up breaking him and a good footballer is going to be lost to the game - that would be a sad day indeed.

Respect is a two way street Roby and I don't recall ever getting personal with you over anything you posted but in saying that if your going to put your opinion out there then surely you expect to get a response to that opinion and not take offence (unless it does get personal) if someone disagrees with you.

Reread my posts, am I actually criticising Schoenmakers or the match committee? If I thought we didn't have a better option or alternative, you would not hear a word from me. Not one.