Mega Thread Brett Ratten

[blue healer]

I agree that JR Bower & Lucas have been disappointing. Lucas was a future star in his first couple of matches, then was dropped to the 2nds for a long time, and now he looks like a future list clogger. The other two have also suffered for their time at Northern, their injuries haven't helped.
IMO Watson & Bootsma need to stay in the side to have any chance to develop.

Hendo is the CHB we deserve, but not the CHB we need right now

Sorry, I think Hendo is the one we need right now at CHB and as much as I like Bootsma I don't think, with his body mass, that he needs to stay in the side particularly for the next 2 matches (Hawthorn & Collingwood) to develop. Would much prefer to see him managed rather than risked, looks too valuable.

As for Watson I totally agree that he should stay in for development. He has shown enough improvement in the time he has been there to justify it and also, from the thoughts of those who watch the 2's, he wasn't developing there as most thought he wasn't ready for elevation and some were even questioning his future.

 

[The Coach]

Lets not be in denial here... fact is if Ratten gets us to the finals and we win a final or two, the board would have to agree with consideration to our injury list that he's done a good job and will be allowed to serve his final year of his contract next year.

He fails to make finals - lets not delude ourselves... he's most likely gone... whether he is a good coach or not, like the masses most feel he's done his job to get the team spirit back, but he may not be the most capable out there to get us beyond 5-8th.

To me it's simple.. if the board has a niggle in the back of their mind whether he's the right man.. he should be asked to step-down (hopefully will swallow his pride and be a senior assistant)... Last year the board clearly had a niggle as he basically had to win a final to appease them and even then they still seemed a little hesitant when they finally made the call.

I have no grudge with Ratten, and to be honest I feel he's served his purpose and I thank him, he was the right man for our previous 5 years... moving forward we need a stronger, more aggressive coach, who not only can bring himself down to the level of the players, but also bring the fear of god into them too.

I would consider Choco Williams, Malthouse, Roos (with a better gameplan), Blight, Matthews, Ayers at this point as being good candidates.

Not saying it is entirely his fault (lack of leaders including Judd) but of late 'lack of team spirit' has been a concern

You are discounting a key player from your injury list because he has become too injured to be included?

And what you fail to understand or at least acknowledge in regarding the form of players you mention such as Gibbs, Garlett, Yarran and we can include Joseph who has been patchy but retained his spot etc is that if there is a significant injury list then the flexibility to drop players is severely hampered, so it can subconsciously effect their intensity through the sense of security the club not being in as solid a position to drop them conveys.

Brown20's post 788 is a good response to this but I would add that if any player is that slack and unambitious (for the team) then we should be weeding them out pretty quickly (it would be visible in many ways). Mind you, I have raised a similar point in the past - questioning how the young player of today guages whether he is a success ie Just being an AFL player v Being a premiership player. This should come from within but it is ultimately the coach's responsibility to be continually raising the bar (including intensity) and developing the team spirit required to win premierships

The thought of a footballer lacking intensity (playing wishy-washy) because he thinks he is assured a game reminds me of this quote from my sig book.

"Courage is completely mental. It denotes stength of purpose, and will to win, as well as the normal thing called courage. Those things are closely allied.
You don't get a guy with plenty of courage who's wishy-washy, doesn't know what he wants to do, is always in two minds. He's generally disciplined - particularly on himself.
And that's why it needs courage to stop playing wishy-washy, weak games, where it's someone else other than us dictating how a game is conducted, and what sort of style is dominant. We dictate ... not them!"
RDB

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Lets not be in denial here... fact is if Ratten gets us to the finals and we win a final or two, the board would have to agree with consideration to our injury list that he's done a good job and will be allowed to serve his final year of his contract next year.

He fails to make finals - lets not delude ourselves... he's most likely gone... whether he is a good coach or not, like the masses most feel he's done his job to get the team spirit back, but he may not be the most capable out there to get us beyond 5-8th.

To me it's simple.. if the board has a niggle in the back of their mind whether he's the right man.. he should be asked to step-down (hopefully will swallow his pride and be a senior assistant)... Last year the board clearly had a niggle as he basically had to win a final to appease them and even then they still seemed a little hesitant when they finally made the call.

I have no grudge with Ratten, and to be honest I feel he's served his purpose and I thank him, he was the right man for our previous 5 years... moving forward we need a stronger, more aggressive coach, who not only can bring himself down to the level of the players, but also bring the fear of god into them too.

I would consider Choco Williams, Malthouse, Roos (with a better gameplan), Blight, Matthews, Ayers at this point as being good candidates.

Good post. Can be improved by removing reference to Choco.

 

[blue healer]

Good post. Can be improved by removing reference to Choco.

And Ayres and Blight.

 

[HBF]

I suppose you could say that I have been critical of Ratts throughout the season, and for good reason in some instances but we simply have to look not only at the players he hasn't had at his disposa since the season has started, but we must look at some other factors as well.

Laidler, Murphy, Waite, Yarran and Carrazzo all missing large chunks of the season [5]
Warnock, Jamison, Walker, Judd, Tuohy & Duigan all missed significant parts of the preseason [6]
Kreuzer is clearly carrying an injury [1]

That's 12 of our best 22 either injured or struggling with their lack of preseason

Now add the form issues with guys like Garlett and you can start to see why we are really struggling. This 2012 season smells very similar to Hawthorns of 2009. Promised a hell of a lot and delivered very little.

Whatever happens between now and the end of season, I just hope we can see a liitle bit of silver lining. Getting games into guys like Watson & Bootsma, getting more games into Tuohy to become a bona fide AFL player, and I think most importantly Henderson playing forward and being a cornerstone of our forwardline for the next 10 years. I also think we need to bite the bullet with Kane Lucas and simply play him for the remainder of the season. Guys like AJ and Brock aren't the future, and the only way Lucas is going to improve is by playing with guys like Judd, Simmo, Scotland, Carrazzo and Murph [when he comes back].

 

[Blue Flame]

Football clubs are delicate places because we deal with people. While business also deals with people, the results of a business are far less dependent on the employees' psychological state that those of a football club. As such, those suggesting some players have a disagreement with Ratten may or may not be speaking the truth, but we need to accept that every coach will offend some players and be close to others, it's a personal business. Some players are offended simply by not being selected, however this alone is not a reason to select them.

 

[JustaBattler]

Cards on the table So far so bad and so good = neutral.

Big Games: Ratts has question marks over his during a game coaching ability - because we lost to Brisbane giving up a huge lead, this has stuck. Sydney wasn't much better. Against this - Last year smashing Essendon and nearly knocking off WC at home brings him back to square - but doubts linger about big matches in finals.
Players: CFC would be a top4 side with Fevola in it. Malthouse could probably have fixed the Fev and at the same time got an alternative in place - that is just how good he is. Fev like it or not is a major failure of management for the Club - because freaks like Fevola are rare. Such a tragedy for CFC. Against this: making the hard decision when forced to by players AND re-engineering into the most exciting attacking team in the competition
Team Playing Style: developing an alternative multi faceted points scoring machine via the Amigos and Walker last year was a strategic masterstroke. Other teams are now copying a lot of CFC attacking strategies via smalls - Saints used our game plan against us this year. So Ratten has shown he can develop an attacking structure - sans Fevola. Something Malthouse/Lyon/Thompson/ etc have never had to do so can't be measured against.
Depth: Hampered by effectively no drafts for two years- same a every other Club; however Laidler/Duigan major wins; Injuries to developing VFL talls and in particular Rowe (sicknes) this year have cruelled him for choice. Rowe was very highly rated and set to play a big part for us this year ala Laidler/Duigan. Also - re-engineering Henderson into our best defender last year- fantastic achievement. Re-engineering Walker into a potent goal kicking machine - fantastic. Shifting Yarran into HB and watching him become (at his best) the most potent counter attacking running/kicking player in AFL - fantastic.
Managing Pressure: Ratts has had the bunsen burner on him for two months now - and had no cattle or reserves to draw on. Simply put - injuries have stuffed him and CFC.
Unique Qualities: Ratten is a genuine 100% CFC champion an insider who if survives the current shit situation - could end up coaching for many many years and unliek al teh other bitch Clubs who hire outsiders - sets up a genuine organic 100% Carlton Club Culture and situation.

Not interested in passing judgement on Ratten until we have at least a season with him coaching a list with 30 fit players to choose from. Malthouse and Ross would be licking their lips at the prospect of being handed big bucks to coach at CFC - they know exactly how good our fit list is. Don't want either of them - they would change what has been developed back into something that everyone else is doing. Some of our favourite players would not survive a Malthouse /Roos purge.

 

[Big Red is back]

I've just heard Ratten has been summoned before the board to explain the reasons for the earthquake the other day, and why he did nothing to prevent it.
Think he may be in some serious trouble over this.

Hopefully he can also touch on the fact we are on par with sides like the Western Bulldogs (assuming they win this week), who last I checked were in a complete rebuild.

 

[timbertron]

The biggest issue is mental resolve and team spirit. Neither of these things are affected by injuries. However the team lost it in a big way. Whether its right or wrong thats on the coach. It's not if we win or lose when decimated by injuries but how we play...and we played appalling for over a month.

When people mention the injuries to the Pies and WC they point out that their intensity and work rate didnt drop off like ours did. Thats the biggest issue I have with the coach. He needs to be judged on the quality of performance with a healthy list AND a depleted list. So far he's passed one and failed one.

Also the idea we shouldn't sack Ratts this year because it makes us look like Richmond or some such thing is wrong. It makes us look like we accept mediocrity at Carlton...and we don't.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Not saying it is entirely his fault (lack of leaders including Judd) but of late 'lack of team spirit' has been a concern



Brown20's post 788 is a good response to this but I would add that if any player is that slack and unambitious (for the team) then we should be weeding them out pretty quickly (it would be visible in many ways). Mind you, I have raised a similar point in the past - questioning how the young player of today guages whether he is a success ie Just being an AFL player v Being a premiership player. This should come from within but it is ultimately the coach's responsibility to be continually raising the bar (including intensity) and developing the team spirit required to win premierships

The thought of a footballer lacking intensity (playing wishy-washy) because he thinks he is assured a game reminds me of this quote from my sig book.

"Courage is completely mental. It denotes stength of purpose, and will to win, as well as the normal thing called courage. Those things are closely allied.
You don't get a guy with plenty of courage who's wishy-washy, doesn't know what he wants to do, is always in two minds. He's generally disciplined - particularly on himself.
And that's why it needs courage to stop playing wishy-washy, weak games, where it's someone else other than us dictating how a game is conducted, and what sort of style is dominant. We dictate ... not them!"
RDB

With all due respect Coach, but you are talking about the mentality of players of a different era. Since players become full time, they have lost all connection to "ordinary" life. A lot of players still mouth the platitudes of "winning flags is why we play the game" etc but in reality there are a lot of players that are content with life being on a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year and if you were to "weed" them out (if it was even possible) we would be left with enough to fill half the teams we currently have.

And just on that, umpiring is the same. In the old VFL it was the pinnacle comp in the country, 6 games a weekend, one, then 2 umpires per game so we attracted the best dozen umps and had pretty good quality. Now we need 27 umps for the 9 games 3 umps and game and frankly the quality now is crap. There is still the dozen or so good umps but inter mixed with the duds. I am sure the 18 or so other poorer quality umps aspire to be great or better but they are not and they are all we have.

So back on topic, unless a team is incredibly lucky with injuries now, there is so little difference between clubs that the good teams fall back to mediocre fast as a result. There is no real depth any more. The salary cap has seen to that. The moment you have it, you have to pay them all for it, and if you cant then you get players leave for the money that other teams with lesser players on their list and therefore lesser depth and lesser salary cap used will bid them up.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

Cards on the table So far so bad and so good = neutral.

Big Games: Ratts has question marks over his during a game coaching ability - because we lost to Brisbane giving up a huge lead, this has stuck. Sydney wasn't much better. Against this - Last year smashing Essendon and nearly knocking off WC at home brings him back to square - but doubts linger about big matches in finals.
Players: CFC would be a top4 side with Fevola in it. Malthouse could probably have fixed the Fev and at the same time got an alternative in place - that is just how good he is.

Interesting - also remember reading that if anyone will bring Fevola into line it will Voss and J.Brown.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Yeah Malthouse would have got Fev into line, after all look at the job he did with The Shaw Bros, and the gun toting Didak, he did such a good job curing bad boy Tarrant that he sent him to Freo to get straitened out, then got him back once done. And of course there was the great esteem that the TAC held the club and its players in while Malty was head coach.....yep some sterling work by the guy.

To be fair, Ben Johnson has settled down, no doubt as a result of the coach having a word in his shell like. Pardon my cynicism.

 

[Snoozer]

Ratten would want to stop this kind of carry on.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Ratten would want to stop this kind of carry on.

A humorous cut and paste job but I wonder if any of you understand the significance of that piece of film history and the metaphor the writer of the screenplay intended to convey with it? You may find some irony in its meaning.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Ratten would want to stop this kind of carry on.

glad to see this has made it on to another thread

 

[JustaBattler]

Interesting - also remember reading that if anyone will bring Fevola into line it will Voss and J.Brown.

Because Voss failed doens't mean anything really - hi oen claim t fame was knocking us off in a semi IMHO.

Yeah Malthouse would have got Fev into line, after all look at the job he did with The Shaw Bros, and the gun toting Didak, he did such a good job curing bad boy Tarrant that he sent him to Freo to get straitened out, then got him back once done. And of course there was the great esteem that the TAC held the club and its players in while Malty was head coach.....yep some sterling work by the guy.

To be fair, Ben Johnson has settled down, no doubt as a result of the coach having a word in his shell like. Pardon my cynicism.

If oyu think Malthouse is a bad coach - then I would like to see who you think is a good coach - btw both Shaws are playing great football. Didak was a major contributor to their recent premiership and Malthouse gets the most out of young players compared to any other coach I have seen. His legacy at Collingwood speaks for itself.

I just don't happen think that Malthouse is the coach for Carlton - and I like to think that Ratten can have an opportunity to coach a Carlton with a bigger list to choose from - before people call to have him removed.

 

[Buzz/Sticks/bryce]

Because Voss failed doens't mean anything really - hi oen claim t fame was knocking us off in a semi IMHO.

Wasn't just Voss and ratten who couldn't pull Fev into line. Also Parkin, Brittain, Pagan and Sheedy(Ireland).

 

[40yearBLUE]

Because Voss failed doens't mean anything really - hi oen claim t fame was knocking us off in a semi IMHO.



If oyu think Malthouse is a bad coach - then I would like to see who you think is a good coach - btw both Shaws are playing great football. Didak was a major contributor to their recent premiership and Malthouse gets the most out of young players compared to any other coach I have seen. His legacy at Collingwood speaks for itself.

I just don't happen think that Malthouse isn't the coach for Carlton - and I like to think that Ratten can have an opportunity to coach a Carlton with a bigger list to choose from - before people call to have him removed.

First of all I have never said that Malthouse was a bad coach. If Ratts got hit by a bus tomorrow and quit as a result I would have no problem with him being our coach, I just would not sack Ratts to hire him.

Second you made some pretty dumb and totally unsubstantiated (and unable to ever be) assertions that my sarcasm toward you totally earned with interest.

First there was that we would definately be a premiership side with Fev still in it.......hardly even warrants further discussion, just about every modern coach and commentator has told you (and they reittereated it with their lack of interest in him for free in the last draft) that you cannot win premierships with one dimensional, personality driven forward lines. But you know better then them.

And secondly that Malthouse would have (not might have but unequivocally would have) straightened Fev out and I suggested to you the players that he was unable to influence into not being total knobs under his stewardship as evidence that there is some doubt as to the verasity of your assertions.

And unsurprisingly, as other posters that post utter crap have done before you, you dont much like it when challenged to defend your position. Why am I not surprised.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

For once in a while am on the fence re: Ratten.

The whole pre-season overseas training, seemed a bit of an excess.

Then we lost a month of prakkies, but it didn't matter.

Then we had 6 weeks of being the big kids.

Last 6 weeks have been goddawful.

Point is, we haven't won 4 weeks in a row in over 10 years, I hear, and this is a concern.

Concerned,
you know where.

 

[Blue Flame]

I've just heard Ratten has been summoned before the board to explain the reasons for the earthquake the other day, and why he did nothing to prevent it.
Think he may be in some serious trouble over this.

He clearly had the list to fix it, he should have done something.



Malthouse would have prevented it...

 

[The Coach]

With all due respect Coach, but you are talking about the mentality of players of a different era. Since players become full time, they have lost all connection to "ordinary" life. A lot of players still mouth the platitudes of "winning flags is why we play the game" etc but in reality there are a lot of players that are content with life being on a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year and if you were to "weed" them out (if it was even possible) we would be left with enough to fill half the teams we currently have.

I think my post indicated that I believe many players aim is to be an AFL player. BUT the club then has to not only develop these players skillsets but also foster team-spirit and pride in performance and that clubs who do not manage this are unlikely to be premiers. This of course is one of the many roles of the coach, his support staff and the recruiting department (they have to find not just talent but a few quality onfield leaders)
A team with with more than one or two of your wishy washy 'lacking intensity when position not under pressure types' (which to tell you the truth, I think is a little bit of overanalysis and excuse making on your part) is unlikely to be winning any grand final

 

[JustaBattler]

First of all I have never said that Malthouse was a bad coach. If Ratts got hit by a bus tomorrow and quit as a result I would have no problem with him being our coach, I just would not sack Ratts to hire him.

Well I wouldnt sign Malthouse for CFC even under those circumstances - for the reasons I made perfectly clear in my original post.

Second you made some pretty dumb and totally unsubstantiated (and unable to ever be) assertions that my sarcasm toward you totally earned with interest.

Can't comment on the above - for obvious reasons and I am not impressed with your rudeness which is against forum rules btw.

First there was that we would definately be a premiership side with Fev still in it.......

I never said the above - if you read what I actually wrote you would know this - please dont put words into people's mouths...

hardly even warrants further discussion, just about every modern coach and commentator has told you (and they reittereated it with their lack of interest in him for free in the last draft) that you cannot win premierships with one dimensional, personality driven forward lines. But you know better then them.

don't care what other people think or say regarding football - I make my own mind up - and btw - am perfectly well equipped to do so..and please again dont put words into my mouth or pretend to know what I do or dont know...poor form really

And secondly that Malthouse would have (not might have but unequivocally would have) straightened Fev out and I suggested to you the players that he was unable to influence into not being total knobs under his stewardship as evidence that there is some doubt as to the verasity of your assertions.

I think Malthouse's successes with 'footballers' speaks for itself - again if you read what I posted - you would also have noted that he would have organised alternatives..

And unsurprisingly, as other posters that post utter crap have done before you, you dont much like it when challenged to defend your position. Why am I not surprised.

Again - you should refrain from abusive behaviour - I am told that it isn't appropriate on the forum. Type on a page is a cheap shot- much harder to presentsomething of substance in your typage.

I suggest that you go back and read what I wrote in order to confirm the good reason I have to be totally confused about your apparent anger and obvious bad manners.

btw - i wont report you - that is a game played by a different type of troll to yourself.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Heres how it works champ, people like you post utter crap, stuff they believe I am sure but which has no basis in fact and people like me are sick to death of reading it and arc up about it.

Present your facts that clearly show that Malthouse would or even could have straitened Fev out. What are they because he did not straighten too many Pies out in his time, name me one player that was so in awe of him or the meagre penalties the pies handed out that they immediately went straight. I presented you the players that did not, 1 Shaw brother at another club, Tarrant sent away to straigten out, Another Shaw twice suspeneded by the club over off field behaviour etc.

And regarding Fev, we improved as a team both on and off the field the moment the club sacked him, but lets concentrate on what I can prove, our forward line was one dimensional and worked when Fev decided he wanted it to. Last year we proved that we were a far better team all over the ground with Fev off it.

Report me or not mate I dont give a flyer, just dont post bullshit, just post facts and you wont get sarcasm thrown at you as a result.

 

[KennyHunter9]

Oh god ... I thought we'd got past the "we'd be top 4 with Fev" line ... honestly. Is this board that inane? Has anyone seen the guy lately? To the future people.

 

[Big Sim]

Point is, we haven't won 4 weeks in a row in over 10 years, I hear, and this is a concern.

Yes indeed Stig. The most pointed and succinct comment on this board for ages.

No streak = no flag.